A storm of ambiguity is brewing over a new controversey that has put mega church pastor Andy Stanley in the spotlight. Julie over at the Steak and a Bible blog has a recap. And if you get a chance to listen to Todd Friel’s recap of the audio in question, please do–it will be vital to your understanding of why the pastor is under a microscope–and rightly so. When you hear his sermon, you too, will be wanting him to explain. Here is Julie’s article:
Andy Stanley Still Not Answering, Puts Down Theology and Preaching
Does the Bible consider homosexuality a sin or not? It seems like a simple question for a pastor to answer. Yet, Pastor Andy Stanley has so far refused to make his answer clear for all the world to know it.
Stanley’s viewpoint is at the center of controversy currently after Al Mohler Jr. brought up one of Stanley’s sermon illustrations in a column for Christian Post entitled: “Is the Megachurch the New Liberalism?” For the record, I think the answer is yes and that Mohler’s column was right on.
The sermon illustration put Stanley’s views of homosexuality on trial because he took issue with a homosexual couple volunteering in one of his church campuses, not because of their homosexuality. But because one of the individuals was not yet divorced from his wife. Stanley identified the offending sin as adultery. If you’d like to hear the sermon Stanley was giving in context you can listen to the audio and a discussion of it in this Fighting for the Faith podcast.
The matter has generated quite a few stories and radio discussions because the Bible is very clear on the subject, in contrast to Stanley. While the viewpoint in unpopular, homosexuality is one of the many behaviors listed in Scripture as sins. So Pastor Stanley either accepts what the Word of God states plainly, or he doesn’t. And his parishioners and the body of Christ as a whole deserve to know which it is.
The Christian Post had a follow up story today (May 6) that still hasn’t cleared things up. That article by Anugrah Kumar called “Pastor Andy Stanley Alludes to How Christians Should Treat Gays” mentioned that when asked for his views, “Stanley had pointed The Christian Post to his message series when asked Wednesday for clarification on his views on homosexuality, and added that he might issue a statement to CP in the near future about the topic.”
That’s not an answer, that is a non-refusal refusal to answer (kind of like the non-apology apologies you see in politics all the time).
In his most recent sermon (of that 8-part series), Stanley instead turned the issue on its head saying Christians have a “branding problem” (because people call Christians homophobic), putting down theology (from CP: “Regrettably, he added, many a times we find that those who have hurt us are the ones who are right in their theology.”) and saying: “Jesus’ movement was all about ‘how you love,’ but overtime it became ‘what you believe,’ he said. ‘If we would simply do what Jesus did… instead of arguing about what he said, ‘the world would change, the reputation of Christ’s followers would change, the influence of the church would change. This is easy. This requires nothing… just a brand new worldview’.”
I’m not sure where to begin. Okay, on the “branding” point. What the world thinks of Christians does not matter. Jesus told his disciples they would be hated for his sake. I absolutely agree that the truth should always be spoken in love and that Christians should not get hung up on one particular sin as if it is a worse sin than any other. But refusing to tell the truth is NOT love. Each and every sin and lifestyle of sin is soul-endangering.
Second, on the point of theology. I am wary of any pastor who puts down doctrine or theology. His statement that often the people who hurt us are doctrinally correct is an overgeneralization and a red herring.
Third, this business about a Jesus movement gets under my skin. What Jesus did wasn’t a “movement.” It wasn’t like the sexual revolution, or women’s suffrage, or prohibition for crying out loud. That language plays into the hands of every person who wants to reduce Christ to his being a good man who was an inspirational example for us to follow.
Jesus was God in flesh revealing himself and the incredible good news! That he was going to make a way for hopeless sinners to be reconciled with God through his death and resurrection. He came to bring a new covenant yes, that would change our relationship to the Mosaic Law. But that didn’t change that the Law was right. It was meant to open our eyes! The Law was given so that we would know we were sinners who could never, ever be good enough in our striving to be acceptable to God. Jesus came and lived a perfect life, one that we COULD NEVER LIVE, so that he could take on the punishment we deserve and become our substitution.
We CANNOT do what Jesus did. We will never even come close. Should we love others? Absolutely! But it can only come from Jesus through us. As believers the more we surrender ourselves to Jesus, the more we can be transformed by him, and the more we will resemble him in behavior.
Jesus was all about “What you believe.” In fact, just this afternoon I was reading John 6 and was pondering this verse: John 6:28 “They said therefore unto him, What must we do, that we may work the works of God? ” The multitude wanted to know how they could do what Jesus had done (he had just fed the 5,000).
But Christ’s answer was not “model my behavior” or “have enough faith and you’ll be able to work these miracles too.” No. His answer was believe in me. John 6:29 “Jesus answered and said unto them, This is the work of God, that ye believe on him whom he hath sent.”
The last paragraph in the CP article was also troubling. “People around Christians, the pastor suggested, should not feel condemned, and that would give leverage to us which we have lost. Change cannot be brought about by preaching and legislation, he emphasized. Change comes when people see something; “it’s so attractive, almost irresistible.”
People should not feel condemned? I agree that bruising feelings unnecessarily is wrong, but to be concerned merely with a person’s feelings rather than their soul is heartless and cruel.
All people who have not believe the gospel of Jesus Christ was living, condemned by their sins, and damned to hell. That’s the problem!
I’m truly saddened that Stanley thinks “change cannot be brought about by preaching.” Since that is the very command we’ve been given. Christians are commanded to preach the Gospel. A quick search of “preach” in the Bible yields a great many verses (these are just a few of them) that prove a huge part of Jesus’ own ministry was preaching and his followers were to do the same, verses Stanley needs to reexamine I think.
Matthew 4:17 From that time began Jesus to preach, and to say, Repent ye; for the kingdom of heaven is at hand.
Mark 3:14 And he appointed twelve, that they might be with him, and that he might send them forth to preach …
Mark 16:15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to the whole creation.
Jesus speaking in Luke 4:18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, Because he anointed me to preach good tidings to the poor: He hath sent me to proclaim release to the captives, And recovering of sight to the blind, To set at liberty them that are bruised, To proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord.
Acts 5:42 And every day, in the temple and at home, they ceased not to teach and to preach Jesus as the Christ.
Acts 10:42 And he charged us to preach unto the people, and to testify that this is he who is ordained of God to be the Judge of the living and the dead.
Romans 10:13-17 for, Whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? and how shall they preach, except they be sent? even as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that bring glad tidings of good things! But they did not all hearken to the glad tidings. For Isaiah saith, Lord, who hath believed our report? So belief cometh of hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:23 but we preach Christ crucified, unto Jews a stumblingblock, and unto Gentiles foolishness…
Related articles
- Andy Stanley’s “Microcosm of the Church” (donotbesurprised.com)
- Problems at Andy Stanley’s North Point? (christianresearchnetwork.com)
- Homosexuality, Megachurches, And Andy Stanley (christianresearchnetwork.com)
- Andy Stanley Responds to Inquiries Regarding Stance on Homosexuality (christianresearchnetwork.com)
- Problems At Andy Stanley’s North Point Church? (solasisters.blogspot.com)
One of these days, born again believers will be leaving these instutions built for man’s glory and leave the dead, the religious men that is in them.
Amen! My wife and I already have, 10 years ago and we have never looked back! Now we look forward to the return of our Lord and Saviour, Jesus Christ!
Matthew 18:20 For where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them.
AGREED! Used to go to NP and saw this beginning to happen (false teaching). In fact, I was on a ministry team and tried to talk to Andy about it. He would not. Keeps himself very insulated against these type of things. But the grace and kindness of our Father has opened our eyes to the true church, the body of Christ. We worship and fellowship in homes now, with ALL believers participating, no salaries, no bills to pay, no collection plates, etc. It brings the Lord and His word front and center for each person……instead of just spoon feeding and a pat on the back for attendance……….it’s all so sad….but another sign of where we are.
http://ourbiblequestions.blogspot.com/2009/02/pastor-andy-stanley-very-dangerous-man.html
Another aberrant financial doctrine making a questionable preacher rich.
I don’t understand why you are all obsessed with homosexuality. 4 out of 10 of the posts in the Watchman newsletter are about this topic this week. There are a LOT of things that the Bible says that modern Christians don’t follow–why single this issue out over and over and over again?
We are all *very* aware of your views on the topic. Can we move on?
1. There were a lot of news developments this week on this topic. CNN, Christian Post, Hot Air, etc., all covered it.
2. No.
Pardon my previous miscounting, its actually 5 out of 10–50%– of your posts are about homosexuality this week.
Many sects of Christianity, as well as other world religions, have specific views about what kind of sexuality is permissible, but only in the modern, “Bible-based” Evangelical Christian revisionist world will you ever find 50% of what they have to say is preaching against homosexuality. What a misguided obsession!
Why don’t you preach against the types of sin that harm more than the individual sinner? If you want to preach against sexual and corporal sin, why not preach against the horrifying world of human trafficking (slavery for “you know what”) and what Christians can do to get involved in stopping it? Isn’t that just a little more important than what some small minority of people choose to do with their bodies in the privacy of their own home?
God and God as Jesus taught many things that we should avoid. He also taught many VIRTUES that we ought to engage in. Of course, we ought to listen to both. But we ought to focus on getting the log out of our own eyes rather than obsessing on the specks in others. When we get lost in thinking too much what other people aren’t supposed to do, we are wasting time and getting sinfully distracted from what we ourselves SHOULD be doing as Christ’s Body on Earth.
I don’t understand why people want to attack pastors and churches who are trying to show God’s love to those that don’t know it yet. Is it not enough that the world is filled with so much hate that we, Christians, need to also criticize and tear down each other? I go to NP and happen to love being a part of it. I have never been more in love with God or with a church’s efforts before. I like that I am a member of a church that wades into the messiness and tries to actually love instead of judge. I have a Bible and know what God says about sin. I am not perfect, but thanks to my church, my small group, and my pastor, I am striving to be the salt and the light that God asks of his followers. We all fall short of the glory of God, and to be honest, I am weary of those who condemn me for being a Christian and now those that don’t think I am Christian enough. Thank God that my identity is in Him, and He is the only one I will need to answer to. Until that time I will continue to worship God and serve others.
The problem Amy is we have redifined love to mean: don’t confront, don’t upset, don’t discipline. That is not love. If you did that to your own children you would be hating them and they would turn on you and destroy you.
I have to reckon also that you may understand what the Bible calls sin but you most certainly do not understand sin. Nor do you know how much God hates sin you can only catch a glimpse of it in the whole trial and crucifixion of Jesus Christ on the Cross. Only a glimpse.
Our own sin is our own biggest problem. Thats it, thats all. Sin, Sin, Sin. Its equivillant to arterial bleeding and in most church services it is ignored. Rather the bleeding is left unattended, and comforting words are spoken instead. Wouldn’t you rather have the bleeding stopped first so you don’t die.
It begins with a self will that desires it’s own way and while we may deny it, it’s always at the expense of others. Always.
And It begins when we first breath the free air, we fill our lungs and we wail for comfort and we care nothing of the concerns of others. The whole universe is reduced down to me and what I want and I am going to scream until I get it. As I grow and gain in strength I can be more exuberant in my crying, my tantrum until I get what I want. This is the path of sin the path of self destruction and there is only one way off that path and it comes by the Lord’s grace, through discipline. Without it we do destroy ourselves both in this life and the one to come.
So what of Jesus Christ the one we are supposed to follow: He gave us His answer:
Matthew 26:39 KJV And he went a little further, and fell on his face, and prayed , saying , O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
So Jesus Christ would take the cup that was intended for you and I, the cup of the Lord’s wrath intended for all the ungodly and He drank it all down tot he bitter dregs. Isaiah 51:22 NLT This is what the Sovereign LORD, your God and Defender, says: “See, I am taking the terrible cup from your hands. You will drink no more of my fury. It is gone at last!
Having taken on our sin in His flesh Christ would use the hands of men to destroy it: our sin on him for He Himself bore it. The beatings, the spittings, the tearings, the whipings with the brutal cords to open the flesh and allow the blood to flow, the crown of thorns, the lonely road, the burden to heavy to bear, finally the hill, the hill where it would all end.
2 Samuel 7:14 KJV I will be his father, and he shall be my son. If he commit iniquity , I will chasten him with the rod of men, and with the stripes of the children of men:
Psalm 89:32 KJV Then will I visit their transgression with the rod, and their iniquity with stripes.
Isaiah 50:6 KJV I gave my back to the smiters , and my cheeks to them that plucked off the hair: I hid not my face from shame and spitting.
Proverbs 20:30 KJV The blueness of a wound cleanseth away evil: so do stripes the inward parts of the belly.
Isaiah 53:5 KJV But he was wounded for our transgressions, he was bruised for our iniquities: the chastisement of our peace was upon him; and with his stripes we are healed.
They stripped him naked to expose his shame, driving spikes in His hands and a spike in His feet.
Isaiah 49:15 Can a woman forget her sucking child, that she should not have compassion on the son of her womb? yea, they may forget , yet will I not forget thee. 16 Behold, I have graven thee upon the palms of my hands; thy walls are continually before me.
See So then the son of man was lifted up so marred so much more than any man so he would sprinkle the nations.
Isaiah 52:13 KJV Behold, my servant shall deal prudently, he shall be exalted and extolled , and be very high . 14 As many were astonied at thee; his visage was so marred more than any man, and his form more than the sons of men: 15 So shall he sprinkle many nations; the kings shall shut their mouths at him: for that which had not been told them shall they see ; and that which they had not heard shall they consider .
The lungs so desperate for a breath that could not be drawn unless he flexed his legs but this wasn’t a voluntary action. The flesh filled with our sins, Christ wanted to destroy, that body wanted to live. Everytime it would spasm flinging the shame of the flesh the nakedness of Christ shouting LOOK AT ME. And so overcome by the firey pain the body would colapse until breath was needed again. Cycle after cycle LOOK AT ME. LOOK AT ME. The precious blood of our Savior flinging in the air pouring out on the ground so His heart would melt inside Him.
Psalm 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people. 7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn : they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying, 8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him. 9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother’s breasts. 10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother’s belly. 11 Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help . 12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round . 13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion. 14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint : my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels. 15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death. 16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet. 17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me. 18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.
Christ would allow this torture to run its course until at last the blood of life was all but gone. He thirsted for water and they gave him gall. He cried out to the one who is able to save and said it is FINISHED Our dept has been paid!
Oh dear woman we cannot begin to understand our sin, its destructive power, and God’s hatred of it. Oh, that we would see our sins through the Lord’s eyes and may we come to that place by the Holy Spirit of God where we loath our own selves for what we have done and even now are doing. Oh God have mercy on us show us our ways. Keep us from presumptuous sins. Help us Lord cast off the Sins that so easily entangle that we may run the race set before us not desiring those things any longer.
Oh God help us, by the precious blood of Jesus Christ help us. Not for our sakes but for your name sake. Oh that we would be counted among those who will die for you and suffer for your name sake. Oh God glorify yourself. Glorify yourself!
Act now Oh Lord we have made null your words. We speak peace peace and destruction comes and none consider it is from your Hand. Be Glorified!
Have you seen our baptism videos? Do you read any of Andy’s books or listen to the sermons that come out of our church? In my opinion, I find it a truly moving experience to hear and see how God is working through our church to bring people to Christ and to introduce them to a personal walk with Him. I watch week after week as people decide to turn away from their sinful lives in order to follow Christ, and that is incredible.
Not everyone that attends our church is saved, though. There is a good number of people that are curious about God but still have not made the decision to follow. And like every church, I am sure there are some that attend that still don’t get it. But wouldn’t you rather these people be in church then not? Afterall, I attended church for years thinking I was saved, left the church in college, returned again as an adult, and then was finally smacked with the Spirit years later in a way that I will never turn away from Him again.
I am not a leader in my church, but I hope we never get to the point where we designate “saved” and “un-saved” seating sections or give people a 10-visit limit in which to turn away from sin or leave the church. If this was the case, I may have never made it back to God. Our church’s mission is simple, “to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ.” It is my hope that people reach a stage in their walk where they will thirst for more spiritual knowledge, take a deeper look at their life choices, and will not keep their mouths shut about what God is doing in their lives.
Right now, my heart aches for my church, my country and humanity. I am saddened that people…Christian people…are jumping to conclusions and passing judgements based on a snipet from a sermon that was one in an 8-part series that had nothing to do with the particular sin in question. But that is what people want to focus on; that is what makes blog headlines; that is what gives some theologians and other pastors a spark they can turn into a fire for God. And if that is what people want to cling to as a way of reaffirming their faith, then so be it. More glory to God.
I thought I would post as someone who goes to NP and loved the sermon on “What is Christian.” However, I may have said too much or rubbed you the wrong way, and for that I am sorry. To be completely honest, I don’t think it matters what I say or what Andy says at this point. People have already formed opinions and hardened their hearts to anything else.
I am reminded of when Jesus was being questioned by the high priests whether He thought He was Christ, but he kept his silence. Only after they made him oathe to God, he answered, “thou sayest I am.” It does feel like that sometimes.
Thank you for worrying about my salvation. Like you, I, too, loathe sin; but I will never loathe myself. For I am a child of God, and that is something to be proud of.
Please understand me, Andy isn’t the issue here. Its our desire to follow after fallen man that is the issue. Personally I am very ashamed for Christ’s sake, because we refuse to confront sin and repent of our wickedness. So it is, the name of God to this very day is blasphemed because of us and our own stoney hearts.
Oh Why are you proud? Are you proud that Christ had to pour out his blood for you, are you proud Christ was torn assunder by the whip for your sins. Are you proud our savior was disgraced? Are you proud this was all nessesary because of your sin. Sins which you will continue to walk in until the day you die. Oh what is there to be proud of? that God calls us His child though we refuse time and again to obey Him. Oh that Christ would be glorified in us!
James 4
8 Draw close to God, and God will draw close to you. Wash your hands, you sinners; purify your hearts, you hypocrites. 9 Let there be tears for the wrong things you have done. Let there be sorrow and deep grief. Let there be sadness instead of laughter, and gloom instead of joy.
10 When you bow down before the Lord and admit your dependence on him, he will lift you up and give you honor. 11 Don’t speak evil against each other, my dear brothers and sisters. If you criticize each other and condemn each other, then you are criticizing and condemning God’s law. But you are not a judge who can decide whether the law is right or wrong. Your job is to obey it.
James 3:13 If you are wise and understand God’s ways, live a life of steady goodness so that only good deeds will pour forth. And if you don’t brag about the good you do, then you will be truly wise! 14 But if you are bitterly jealous and there is selfish ambition in your hearts, don’t brag about being wise. That is the worst kind of lie. 15 For jealousy and selfishness are not God’s kind of wisdom. Such things are earthly, unspiritual, and motivated by the Devil. 16 For wherever there is jealousy and selfish ambition, there you will find disorder and every kind of evil.
17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure. It is also peace loving, gentle at all times, and willing to yield to others. It is full of mercy and good deeds. It shows no partiality and is always sincere. 18 And those who are peacemakers will plant seeds of peace and reap a harvest of goodness.
James 1:19 My dear brothers and sisters, be quick to listen, slow to speak, and slow to get angry. 20 Your anger can never make things right in God’s sight. 21 So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the message God has planted in your hearts, for it is strong enough to save your souls. 22 And remember, it is a message to obey, not just to listen to. If you don’t obey, you are only fooling yourself.
23 For if you just listen and don’t obey, it is like looking at your face in a mirror but doing nothing to improve your appearance. 24 You see yourself, walk away, and forget what you look like. 25 But if you keep looking steadily into God’s perfect law — the law that sets you free — and if you do what it says and don’t forget what you heard, then God will bless you for doing it.
Don’t be afraid to confront our own wickedness. We must bring our deeds into the light to expose them for what they are and what we are to bring us to repentance. do not fear the Lord’s discipline but rather look for it.
John 3
18 “There is no judgment awaiting those who trust him. But those who do not trust him have already been judged for not believing in the only Son of God. 19 Their judgment is based on this fact: The light from heaven came into the world, but they loved the darkness more than the light, for their actions were evil. 20 They hate the light because they want to sin in the darkness. They stay away from the light for fear their sins will be exposed and they will be punished.
21 But those who do what is right come to the light gladly, so everyone can see that they are doing what God wants.”
Please realize I am for Andy here but I am against what he is doing or any other pastor or priest who refuses to confront sin especially his own in the body of Christ.
I’m afraid these folks believe they have something they do not posses so they go about justifying themselves before man point to what they have done.
I do think Pastor Stanley should be a man and say that homosexuality is not right the same way adulterey and fornication is not right. But in his defense, he did not say homosexuality is okay. All he says (as far as what I’ve read) is that we as Christians should love everyone and accept everyone regardless. Pastor Stanley tries to create an environment where non Christians feel loved and accepted and I wonder how many homosexuals feel that when they walk into a church? I’m a Christian and sometimes I don’t feel loved or accepted by the church.
I was watching the very “When Gracie Met Truthie” sermon live on my computer. I did not see anything wrong with this story. It was about a woman who chose to forgive her husband for hurting her and her daughter, not a story about how homosexuality is good. Yes, I thought not allowing them to serve in the church because they were comitting adulterey and not because they were homosexual was very, very off but I think Pastor Stanley seems nervous about chasing non Christians off, and all of the non Christians I know are pro gay. When Pastor Stanley says there is nothing wrong with homosexuality with his own mouth and declares that to the world then I will not listen to him any longer. But he never said that and you can’t prove he did, so let’s give him the benefit of the doubt
Thanks Nicole. To your point, several Christian reporters did ask him as he began his series what his position on homosexuality is. He said that he could not do the topic justice in just a soundbite, and that we should all listen to his entire 8-part series to understand his position. The problem is, he did not deliver on his promise to clearly articulate his position or what God has said about homosexuality. He remained ambiguous, which helped nobody but which did get a lot of people listening to his podcasts. It would appear that web traffic is more important than clarity and truth.
The last time I heard about Andy Stanley was about 20 years or so ago. Then he was preaching at youth gatherings. I saw a short video clip on another website of him preaching the sermon everyone is talking about. The first thing that came across to me in the video was what I see in a lot of ministers today, and that is effeminate mannerisms. Recently, I was invited to a local Nazarene church and the pastor was so effeminate acting I could barely sit there. I don’t know what there deal is. I think some of them who act like this might do so to appeal to people as non-authoritarian or something. I’ve heard a lot of women don’t like men who come across as authoritarian and assertive. Several years ago there was a female guest on the O’Reilly Factor who wrote a book about the feminization of boys in America and how masculinity in boys was put down as an undesirable quality.
The second thing that struck me about him was that he looked like he had never done any manual labor with the exception of maybe taking out the trash occasionally. I wonder if some of these preachers go into the ministry because it is a cushy job. No doubt he got a head start being the son of a well known minister. All of this is pure conjecture on my part and not any different than a lot of businesses whose relatives get ahead by who they are related to. Whatever the case, you hope that the man who is standing in front of you and declaring the Word of God is truly anointed and God called. Not just someone who went into the ministry because it was easy and his dad was a minister. Having said all of that the real question focuses on his sermon and doctrine. What little I heard of it didn’t sound like the Bible. That’s another thing about some ministers. They come up with all these perspectives, angles, and insights that are supposed to help a person get a deeper understanding of the Bible, but once dissected and understood are not even close to being Bible based. The Bible is simple, easily understood and clear cut. It is when preachers try to twist it to accommodate their opinions and biases that it gets complicated. His sermon could have easily been a 4 point sermon. 1. All have sinned and homosexuality, murder, covetousness, adultery, etc. are sin. 2. God loves sinners and sent His Son Jesus to pay the penalty for our sins. 3 Repent of your sin by asking God to forgive you and forsake your sin. 4. Accept Christ as your personal Savior and follow him in discipleship and obedience.
The few times I have listened to the megachurch preachers they never talk about sin or the Bible, it is about nonsense that doesn’t even resemble Bible preaching.
May the Lord help us to do his will by following him and obeying the Bible.
This article and many of these posts are exactly the kind of junk Andy Stanley is talking about. If you listen to any number of his sermons or bother to complete the series this was taken from you wouldn’t have anything to even discuss. Sad that we Christians take every opportunity to attack each other any chance we get. How about concentrating on all the junk all of us have in our own lives instead of on every one else’s. This is the primary stuff that makes people want to stay as far away from Jesus as they can.
First of all Mel, I don’t know what you mean by we should be “concentrating on all the junk all of us have in our own lives”. I’m assuming what you are calling junk is another name for sin. When I got saved the Lord cleansed me from sin and delivered me from the power of sin. So I don’t have any “junk” in my life. And if I did that is still no excuse to overlook or tolerate what the Bible clearly condemns as sin. What you are calling “attacks” on Andy Stanley, I call reproving and rebuking. 2 Timothy 4:2 Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine. No one is infallible including Andy Stanley. If he has compromised the Bible’s teaching on homosexuality to accommodate the gay community or others who don’t like naming sins,he should be reproved for it. John the Baptist was executed because he told Herod it was not lawful for him to have his brothers wife. But preachers today don’t want to say anything that might be offensive so they steer clear of naming sin. Dave Hunt has a video on YouTube called Perilous Times. It would behoove you to check it out. It is about false doctrine and counterfeit preachers. You say the reason people stay away from Jesus is this “primary stuff”. “This is the primary stuff that makes people want to stay as far away from Jesus as they can.” Jesus said the reason they stay away from him is because they hate the light. John 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
@gorman….I think your posts speak for themselves. That’s all I have to say.
I think its sad as we watch and listen as people set aside the word of God that we do not recognize it when it happens. I think its sad when people hold up “the Gospel”, that would be the whole counsel of God’s word, the complete redemptive story and how we are to be reconcilled to God, how we are called out of a life filled with all manner of sins to no longer walk in those ways, how we can find that somehow offensive and hatefull.
Who do we love? Is it Christ? If so obey Him! If we do not hold fast to God’s word and truly forsake those things he has saved us from we do not love Him. The one you obey is the one you love. Are you pursuing the things you can obtain here: luxury, comfort, ease, physical security. If so what of your soul?
Is Christ the head? If He is your head you would not follow anothers voice, a voice that diminishes the severity of sin and makes light the price Christ paid because of sin. If we are not confronted daily with God’s righteousness and our sinfullness who’s voice are we following?
Are we walking the light of our own candle set alight by the sparks of our own desires being carried about by our own emotions? This is not the mind of Christ, a mind set on the Truth of God’s word, the Holy Scriptures!
Whoever wrote this article is a sad, legalistic and arrogant and part of the reason so many people hate Christians. You are part of the problem. It looks like you know more than Jesus himself! ha-ha!
Instead of calling people names like sad, legalistic and arrogant, why don’t you you explain yourself. Why is the person who wrote this article sad, legalistic and arrogant? Is it because you don’t agree with the writer? I’m not sure why you think people hate Christians? Jesus said we (Christians) would be hated by the world. Luke 6:22 Blessed are ye, when men shall hate you, and when they shall separate you from their company, and shall reproach you, and cast out your name as evil, for the Son of man’s sake. What do you mean by “You are part of the problem”. What problem are you referring to? And what do you mean by “It looks like you know more than Jesus himself ha ha.” If you want to contribute to this blog you should write something that is intelligible.
This site should be called stand up for my version of the truth. You all think you have it all figured out just as the Pharisees did. How can you not see the parallels between your words and actions and those of the Pharisees?? You are holding up your version of the truth at the total expense of grace and love. Stanley was right- full grace and full truth are messy. You prefer grabbing at your version of full truth because it is easier. Shame on you.
You are as confused and ignorant of the Bible as others on this blog who are coming up with excuses for Andy Stanley’s flaky and compromising position on open and in-your-face sin among his church members. He appears to be more of a politician than a preacher. Apparently he wants to keep the donations from the homosexuals coming in.
The Bible is crystal clear about how Christians are to deal with immorality in the church. Paul writes in I Cor. 5:9-13 (NKJ) the following:
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. Yet I certainly did not mean with the sexually immoral people of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or idolaters, since then you would need to go out of the world. But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person. For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.”
No matter how much Andy Stanley or others try to twist the Bible to avoid running off people who might contribute to the church, the clear teaching of the Word of God stands. And instead of trying to water down the Bible’s teaching about sin, he should be preaching a gospel that is the power of God unto salvation, a gospel that declares no matter what your sin is, God can save you and deliver you from sin and make you a child of His. Paul in the next chapter 1 Cor. 6 9-11 (NKJ) says this:
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived. Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor homosexuals, nor sodomites, nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit the kingdom of God. And such were some of you. But you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus and by the Spirit of our God.
Instead of preaching a sermonette about Gracie and Truthie according to the world, he needs to preach a sermon on Grace and Truth according to the Bible. When people end up in hell because they haven’t been given the truth about God’s grace, the shame will be on you and Andy Stanley.
AMEN Todd!!! @ Gorman it’s actually Truthy which leads me to believe you haven’t watched one word of the series. And with that kind of crazy legalistic world you seem to live in I can’t imagine that appealing to anyone who doesn’t know Christ. Your posts couldn’t be any further from what Christs example was in the Bible. Not to mention your words are drenched with contempt. Shame on you!! You should definitely listen to Andy’s definition of a Christian. I think you might find it pretty ironic!!
Mel, as I stated before, you and others on this blog are either ignorant of the Bible or you choose to ignore the clear teachings of the Bible. You, like Andy Stanley, have been influenced by the godless culture of our day and are trying to reconcile the clear teachings of scripture with the degenerate practices of this present world. This is not the first time the Church has seen this. Two notable instances of this were the during the medieval period and in the 19th century. During the medieval period the Church corrupted scripture with the teachings of the Greek philosophers. It took the Reformation to bring the Church back to the Bible. In the 19th century, the Church tried to accommodate Darwinism and liberalism. Again, the results were disastrous. Dr. Albert Mohler’s article “Is the Megachurch the New Liberalism” compares the old liberalism with what we are seeing in churches today. If you haven’t read the article I think you will find it beneficial. In my earlier reply to you I mentioned Dave Hunt and his video on YouTube called “Perilous Times”. It is a warning to Christians to be aware of the dangers confronting Christians today. In Gal 5:9 Paul says “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump”. Paul is telling the Galatians that if they allow a false doctrine, in that case it was a teaching about the necessity of circumcision to be saved, it will have the effect of destroying the gospel. This is not being legalistic, but realistic. If the Church legitimizes and normalizes homosexual relationships in the church it will have far reaching destructive consequences to the church and to the gospel.
I am neither ignorant of the Bible nor do I ignore what it teaches. You on the other hand are good at dodging all of the issues presented in my post. Just as other religions can twist and contort scripture, you my friend have done the same. This will be my last response as we seem to just be going back and forth. Btw, Andy Stanley and his church to not condone homosexuality. You really should do your research before making comments such as this. What does the Bible say about lying????? You should also try watching the series in its entirety before posting a whole bunch of opinions on it. Like I said before, shame on you. Thank God Jesus is nowhere near what you are trying to make of Him. It does say that we will be hated because of Him. It doesn’t say that we are to spread hate on others. Which is exactly what you are doing by making statements that are flat out lies and attacking Andy Stanley’s character by saying he is feminine. SHAME ON YOU!!!
Mel, my opinion of Andy Stanley’s feminine mannerisms have nothing to do with his teachings. I’m guessing that a lot of people would disagree with me and say he isn’t effeminate acting. As I said in my first post, there are a lot of preachers I’ve heard who, in my opinion, are effeminate acting. And I explained why I think this. But whether he is or isn’t effeminate has nothing to do with his teaching or his character. About the dodging of issues, what issues am I dodging and in what way have I twisted scripture. If you would be specific about what issues I am dodging and what scripture I have twisted, I would be happy to accept your criticism, in fact I would welcome your criticism.
Now to your point about Andy Stanley position on homosexuality. You remind me of someone who has slept through a tornado and on awakening wonder why everyone is up in the air. When you say Andy Stanley nor his church condones homosexuality and that I should do my research before commenting about his sermon, you really sound ignorant. Julies article above, Dr. Mohler’s article and other related articles are all about Andy Stanley and his church’s position on homosexuality. Everyone is asking what does he believe about homosexuality. It appears to those who have heard his sermon “Gracie meets Truthie” and have written these articles, that he does in fact condone homosexuality. If he doesn’t condone it, he should say so, and explain what he believes about it. One last thing. To me the most bizarre, mind blowing thing Stanley said was that the homosexual who left his wife and was now living with his gay lover, was committing adultery. Stanley never said the homosexual relationship itself was wrong or a sin, which the Bible calls an abomination, instead, he said that what was wrong about the relationship was that it was adulterous. He said the man was committing adultery because he wasn’t divorced from his wife. He said nothing about the homosexual relationship itself being wrong or a sin. You talk about twisted, that is the most twisted view of homosexuality I’ve ever heard. Since when did sodomy and adultery in the Bible become one and the same in the eyes of God. If I’m missing something here, please do me a favor and explain to me what it is I’m missing or don’t understand.
I am a bisexual Christian. God does not seem to care about this. What God and Jesus care about is whether I live in love. I have had several experiences showing God’s love for me, and that I have been given the gift of a loving, compassionate heart and that there is nothing I have to do to be saved.
For those who believe in Bible literalism, you do as you choose. What is invariably missing is that those who believe God does not make gays, is that they have not sat down and listened to the stories of these children God has made. Only then, will there be a true understanding of who God has made. And yes, I believe if you do that with an open heart, you will see that God has made gays and bisexuals. Why? I do not know. But, in my life, God and Jesus do not care about that. What God and Jesus want is for us to live in love. Sexual orientation, in my experience, is irrelevant to what God desires in our lives.
I jjust wanted to say that I agree with what you said very much. I do not believe that god judges us by what our preference if our lifestyle is hetersexuals or homosexuals, or bisexuals. I believe that what he wants from all of us is to except each other for who we are and how we treat each other in gods way. God sent his son to die for all people not just certain people, and who are we to judge? the only one we all have to answer to is god. And of course you have to beiieve and except him as your personal savior to be accepted in the gates of heaven, that goes with not just saying I believe, you have to feel him in your heart and build a relationship with him frist. Without him we can not love, and respect or raise our family by his word.. I found that out as i got older and the way i lived my life and how hard it was. As a young girl I went to church with my grandmother and I enjoyed it and it made me feel good, I wanted to be in choirs and talk to others about christ our lord. I got baptised at 14 and enjoyed it went to church learned all the verses and ten commentments and the bible old and new testiment. Its a long story of how I got lost and left christ behind but I also realized I didn’t teach my sons about god very much not enough for them to understand like I did as they were growing up. With that said we do talk about god and try to understand his word, because I want them to believe in him and to trust in him so we can be together after life…. Not to get off the subject what i want to express to everyone is that i have a partner same sex, never did I know that was coming and I tried to leave that lifestyle because i didn’t believe that could or should happen. But I never much thought about it as much and I didn’t share that with my family but for a while I lived in my on little world with my partner and my boys and they never up to now have ever questioned our love and the ways we lived of course we respected them and we were like a family. There is more too my life but my point is I never thought of myself being with a women I had always being straight but my partner was not she knew she had feelings for girls since she was 5 she said. And as we learned about each other I realized alot of different things like I was not attracted to other women just her and I came to except that I wanted to be with her and it wasn’t because i was born like that, as she was we were attracted to each other by love and for awhile I didnt think nothing of it till years went by and people started askin me questions and of course dating and all then I started questioning myself and what Jesus thought about me and if I it was wrong. I had doubts about the relationship i was. But i have found my way back to god and have a relationship with him.I excepted the fact I loved this women. And now have to say we had our ups and down but with god on our side we have made a commitment to each other and have been together for 20 years but all in all its been 30 years together and we both have christ in our hearts. And its like any relationship but better and I believe that god will not judge me for that, its how we are growing together as one and our sons (two) now we are grandparents to a wonderful a granddaughter. And she will be like my sons except us, we are one and I bet she will never question our values because we are the family that I always wanted and I know god has given that to me because I have a relationship with him and I have no doubt in my heart that he will be waiting for me and my family at the gates of heaven. I hope you and everyone else understand what i was trying to point out. I know I jumped from here to there but my story is very amazing and if anyone wants to e-mail me and have comments or questions I will be glad to listen or answer.
You need to understand something that comment you just wrote shows you are just religious and dead. God DO NOT CREATE HOMOSEXUALS, God is a God of order and he wants us all to stay away from sin including homosexuality which is a sin.
This is not debatable, no matter how long you are in the church or how much you think you love if you dont repent from your sin and leave homosexuality you will burn in hell. period, if you love The Lord you will follow the bible. The Holy Spirit, The Spirit of The Lord is saint and do not tolerate sin. If you were a true cristian you would already now this.
I think you miss something that time and maturity in Christ brings. You start to think like your father (God) and you begin to understand what Pastor Stanley taught recently in his series, “Free”, that at salvation we are removed from our sin nature, graphed into Christ, and what fights us is those habbits that we lived while in sin. The answer is not legalism (law applied from the outside in), because that just makes you guilty of sin with no salvation or life. The answer is relationship where God applies His ways from the inside out, and as we abide in Him, He changes us. In this way we can be transformed into the image of Christ.
If you label human beings as evil due to sins in their life, you forget what Jesus came to do. If a homosexual is willing to listen to Andy Stanley he will not offend them and cut them off from a chance at salvation. His goal is to bring people to a growing relationship with Christ, and condemnation will do nothing in bringing anyone into relationship with Jesus.
I assure you, Andy Stanley knows what are sins in God’s eyes. He also has a goal to win souls. I would be careful who and how you judge, because with that same level of scrutiny you will be judged as well. I have listened to Andy Stanley for one year now, and I enjoy his teaching style. He is careful in what he says, because his goal is not theology, fame, or a perfect church. His goal is to save the world. With that goal in mind, I can understand why he speaks the way he does.
Not every pastor is the same, and not every flock will be your cup of tea, but I would be careful about you say. Andy Stanley is a good man of God, and God has nothing but good to tell me about him. Let God be judge, and let his fruit speak for itself.
P.S. Piece of Bible trivia anyone? Who was it that constantly brought up the law in order to trap Jesus?
The woman caught in adultery comes to mind as a perfect example of Jesus side stepping the trap, so he could continue ministering to people. Watch how they presented this in John 8:
2 At dawn he appeared again in the temple courts, where all the people gathered around him, and he sat down to teach them. 3 The teachers of the law and the Pharisees brought in a woman caught in adultery. They made her stand before the group 4 and said to Jesus, “Teacher, this woman was caught in the act of adultery. 5 In the Law Moses commanded us to stone such women. Now what do you say?” 6 They were using this question as a trap, in order to have a basis for accusing him.
Asking pastor Stanley about if homosexuality is a sin is exactly like the pharisees bringing a woman guilty of adultry, and asking if they can stone her. Jesus cared more about the person than the sin they committed. To show mercy to the woman without breaking the law Jesus convicted the Pharisees about their heart condition, and made them judge themselves first, before pointing a finger at others by saying, “He who has no sin, cast the first stone.”
The truth is the entire church is full of sinners and only a relationship with Jesus can change them. The real question is what were you attempting to gain by asking this question? I doubt your question will serve for bringing souls to Christ, doing good works, or setting anyone free. The great commission is not accomplished by these types of discussions.
As I said before, judge fruit, not outward appearances.
Trisha, you seem to confused about a lot of things by your comment. Obviously we are not under the law, but under grace. Because we are under grace does not give us a license to sin. The Bible in Romans chapter 6 makes this clear.
12-15 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.
Several chapters in Romans contrast one’s life before and after salvation and throughout scripture we are exhorted to live a life of holiness and a life pleasing to God. A true man of God will preach against sin and not be ashamed to name sin as the Bible names sin. Galatians 5:19-21 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God. This is quoted from the KJV. Commentaries on this verse say that “uncleanness” in this verse refers to sexual perversion which includes homosexuality. You probably wouldn’t object to a minister preaching against murder, idolatry or hatred so why would you object preaching against homosexuality? Is it because homosexuals have devoted a lot of time and money to make their lifestyle accepted by society. As Christians we should not allow the culture to skew our understanding and interpretation of the Bible, but should stand for truth as the Bible reveals that truth to us.
Every Christian wants homosexuals to hear the gospel and to be saved. But what every Christian does not want is for known, practicing homosexuals to work in the church. I’m sure you wouldn’t think it was OK for someone who practiced witchcraft or was a drunk to work in the church, so why would you think it was OK for practicing homosexuals to work in the church.
Andy Stanley is not Jesus and the woman caught in the act of adultery brought before Jesus is not the same as asking Andy Stanley about his position on homosexuality since it appeared that he condoned homosexuality by allowing homosexuals to work in the church. No one is trying to trap Stanley; people simply want to know if he believes homosexuality is a sin.
The church is not full of sinners, it is full of saints, that is, people who have repented and turned away from their sins and accepted Christ as their Savior and are now living lives obedient to their Lord. Jesus said if you love me keep my “commandments” which includes what he told the woman who was caught in adultery. After he forgave her he said “Go and sin no more”.
The Apostle Paul said in Galatian 1:9 if any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. If “any man” includes, Andy Stanley, Joel Osteen, Robert Schuller, or any other well known and influential preacher so be it.
There will always be those that support NP Church’s mission and those that condemn it. I have no doubt that Andy Stanley loves God and loves his congregation. If you attend our church and apply for a position there, you would know that you cannot work at the church if you are currently living in a sinful relationship. However, you may volunteer to open the doors for people and say good morning (even if you are a sinner). If you find it appalling that we do not kick out all of the sinners in our church or treat them like a bunch of misfits, then you clearly do not understand our mission which is to lead people into a growing relationship with Jesus Christ. Key word here is growing. People come to Jesus in many different ways, and NP’s goal is to help make that entry point accessible to all. We want to be a gateway for those who seek Jesus. Andy Stanley is not Jesus. He is simply a man that is making the most of the time God has given him. You can either spend your time on Christian blogs criticizing those of us who are trying to bring people to God OR you can go out and be the light God calls us to be. I feel like I have wasted enough time on this site trying to validate myself and my church in the Christian world. I know that there will always be someone trying to judge me and tear down the work that I am doing. Thankfully, I answer to a higher power, and he has charged me to go forth and make believers. That’s how I choose to spend my time and that’s how NP Church chooses to spend its time. How do you choose to spend yours?
P.S. Our church is not filled with saints. It is filled with people who want to know more about Jesus.
Amy, the purpose of the Apostle Paul’s letters to the churches was to bring people into a closer relationship to Jesus. Those letters contained revelations from God on what we are to believe and how to conduct our lives. A lot in Paul’s letters dealt with false doctrine and sin in the church.
What is going on at NP under Andy Stanley’s ministry is both false doctrine and sin.
As Christians everything we believe and practice should be supported by the Word of God. If it isn’t, then all of our so called ministry is of no value and no matter how we spin it we are not bringing people closer to the Lord but misleading them and opening up the church for reproach. Apparently your church does not believe in the doctrine of the New Birth or Regeneration. No where does the Bible teach that we become Christians by a process of growth. We become Christians by being born again by the Spirit of God. This new birth or regeneration occurs when we repent of our sins and accept Christ as our Savior. After we are born again we should grow in grace and the knowledge of the Lord Jesus Christ, but we must first experience the new birth.
No one is saying or implying that a church should kick out sinners or treat them as misfits. We were all sinners under the wrath and judgement of before we repented of our sins and accepted Christ, but now, as Paul says, we are washed, sanctified, and justified. I Cor 6:9-11 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God. Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.
The issue at NP is homosexuals serving in the church. I have known of churches who have had to deal with other issues such as divorced men wanting to serve in a leadership role. Again scripture gives us standards or qualifications for those who want to be a leader in the church. I Tim 3:2,3 A bishop then must be blameless, the husband of one wife, vigilant, sober, of good behaviour, given to hospitality, apt to teach; Not given to wine, no striker, not greedy of filthy lucre; but patient, not a brawler, not covetous;
These are not man’s qualifications but God’s. If we call ourselves Christians we should obey God’s word and not make up our own standards and determine for ourselves what part of scripture we are going to obey and what part we are going to ignore or discard.
One final thing. If you feel you are wasting your time on this blog, by all means do something you feel is more beneficial to the Kingdom of God. Personally, I have been helped and instructed by people who have pointed out serious errors that the modern church is falling into. Foremost among those who have helped me stay on the straight and narrow path are Dr Al Mohler, Dr Norman Geisler, Dave Hunt and John Ankerberg.
VERY well stated, Gorman.
First of all, I have heard several of Andy’s sermons via his various DVD series over the years via a group of Christians that meet weekly at work. Most of what I have heard thus far has seemed to be fairly biblical, although I will say it seems more targeted for the new believer and/or seeker.
I sometimes wonder though, rightly or wrongly, that many of today’s pastor are trying to walk a fine line on certain issues (e.g. homosexualily) that they did not have to before because of where the culture was at in the past. Even my own pastor recently attempted to address this topic in a manner that ended up being clear in the end, although he definitely tip-toed and danced around quite a bit before calling the ‘behavior’ what it is in God’s sight. I pray for our pastors that they will clearing and accurately preach the word of god in loving and compassionate, but yet strong manner. Doing othewise is not being loving or truthful.
“What the world thinks of Christians does not matter.”
Are you kidding me? I stopped reading your blog at this point. That is a ridiculous statement.
Why would you stop reading an article just because you came across a statement you didn’t agree with? If you didn’t agree with the statement, you should have at least given a reason for your disagreement instead of closing your mind and refusing to hear the person out. Your comment is an exhibition of juvenile, immature behavior.
Here is my opinion about the author’s statement “What the world thinks of Christians does not matter.”
I Peter 4:4 Those who do not know God are surprised you do not join them in the sinful things they do. They laugh at you and say bad things against you. NLV
I Peter 4:12-16 Dear friends, your faith is going to be tested as if it were going through fire. Do not be surprised at this. Be happy that you are able to share some of the suffering of Christ. When His shining-greatness is shown, you will be filled with much joy. If men speak bad of you because you are a Christian, you will be happy because the Spirit of shining-greatness and of God is in you. None of you should suffer as one who kills another person or as one who steals or as one who makes trouble or as one who tries to be the boss of other peoples’ lives. But if a man suffers as a Christian, he should not be ashamed. He should thank God that he is a Christian. NLV
We are not to bring reproach on the name of Jesus or give an occasion for the world to speak evil of His name, the name by which we are called, by the way we live and conduct our lives. Having said that, the world is in rebellion against and at enmity with God. The world does not obey and follow God, but they obey and follow their father the Devil. As Christians we do not seek the approval of the world but of God. Jesus himself and the Apostles warned us that being a Christian would not be easy and that as pilgrims and sojourners in this world we would suffer persecution, physical and verbal, so we are to be prepared by committing our lives totally to Him. Throughout the centuries Christians have died for their faith and presently in some Muslim countries Christians are being persecuted and martyred for their faith.
So, I agree with the author that ultimately it does not matter what the world thinks of us. I think John Bunyan, who wrote Pilgrims Progress, would agree with the author’s statement also.
Andy Stanley has been connected with The Emergent Church. Also, it seems his church is following “The Purpose Driven Church” which is about growth (numbers).
the issue here is not homosexuality. it’s the pharisee-type commentators.
that important truth is very sensitive and should be taken into personal confrontation. i have no doubt with that approach. Jesus did it with Mary & Matthew and many other times. i myself did that and i have seen it worked twice for my mentee and the mentee of one of my mentor’s – gays receive God’s rebuke and decided for change. Read your Bible better. Apostle Paul wrote it in some of his letters to the early churches (groups of families). Some of us might not have read it but it’s there – it is personal yet now publicly known. personal rebuke than public scandal is one that we mean love that speaks the truth.
but even if he promotes gayness (which i think is 99.99999% improbable) – i’ll still listen to him because his messages (the ones i’ve heard of) speak of truth. No person in the world has 100% message word for word from God (in fact, i think only the theme is!). it’s what we receive from God in our moments of intimacy with Him and as public speakers pastors, ministers, teachers and others speak they try to communicate it to people. I, personally, believe in God’s anointing to a message and the speech of the messenger but accept a sermon as one from God – NO. It’s from the pastor, obviously. haha. I just think and ask God what and why am I hearing this from this guy. Then verify the claims from my leanings of His Word. PERSONAL.
My personal solution for you is: Don’t accept a person as holy and his sermons as holy. You have God to speak to you through His Word. just treat them as public speakers, endorsers, administrators & others – stop being Pharisee-type.
James your comment was clear as mud, which is what you would expect from a muddled mind. Your accusation that the comments on here are Pharisaical is nonsense and a rehash of previous critical comments which have been answered. Homosexuals use these same tactics to shut people up who speak out against their perversions. If you tell them sodomy is an abomination to God they call you bigoted. If you tell them no sodomite will enter the Kingdom of Heaven, they say you are Pharisaical, unloving and unchristian. The homosexuals have pushed their way into the schools, the courts, the media, the military, and society at large. The last bastion standing against the homosexual onslaught is the church. Preachers like Stanley should be taking an uncompromising stand against this threat to the church instead of having people wonder what he believes about it.
This is my first time here and what unfortunately drew my attention was Andy Stanley and his confounding the church on homosexuality. Having read many of his leadership books and having watched Charles Stanley…I had to see. Andy’s book “Visioneering” is just amazing. As I read through the posts trying to understand and watching the video I am shocked.
Gorman, I agree with you writings and really appreciate your reliance on scripture. I recently read a letter written to the BSA by an Eagle Scout. His intent was clearly not hatred but it will draw that. He was not being a bigot but he will be called it. This Eagle scout, with complete clarity stated his position. How can the Boy Scouts keep their oath while admitting homosexuals currently living in that lifestyle? His point was not necessarily to point out the sin but the unrepentant heart behind it. At one time I found myself, with all of the secular spin, seriously considering the entire debate and what really was wrong with it. I also recall that being a time that I could not “find” the time to be in the Bible. No coincidence there.
We can debate all day the issues contained herein. I stand with Gorman and suggest those who would be antagonists to consider the sermons of the great preachers such as “The Prince of Preachers” Charles H. Spurgeon. Maybe someone would like to read sermons by a man considered by many to be the brightest mind in United States history, Jonathan Edwards. Sermon titles such as “Sinners in the hands of an angry God.” Edwards could almost get sued for that title today. That God Himself holds us by His hand over the flames of hell. Personally, I think we speak far to little of sin and hell. If we believe the Bible then that is a dominant theme. If we don’t talk about it or excuse it then what need is there of the Gospel?
I have a counter part at work who is searching. She was raised in a different denomination than I. One that I take particular exception to in regards to sacred tradition. She expressed to me that God would not send a good person to hell. Following the advise from NP and it’s pastor, I should agree with her or at least not answer her (silent agreement?). Even though I know the Bible, thus God, says different. Knowing the confrontation it would cause, I told her that her philosophy was not accurate. I explained the road to salvation. She was not very happy with me. I had to explain that we were talking about her eternity. I would rather she be mad at me then to face eternity in hell wondering, wishing I had just been honest. Eternity—–my mind can’t even comprehend. But there are those who think there is plenty of time for salvation so let’s just be kind and follow this path of little resistance. C.S. Lewis wrote a very nice rebuttal to that in “Screwtape Letters.”
Pastor’s, whether by calling or choice, are told that they will be held to a higher standard. I have spoken to those who have denied hell and whose reasoning is “all we know about it is what we have read.” Is there even a response to that? These are the pastors who gain a large faithful following. Nothing to live up to. It’s ok to do this or that. Congregations believe they like to listen to that. But, the truth is sweet to the ears. Even if it is hard, an uphill fight. You know truth when you hear it. A discerning spirit.
I commit to praying for NP, it’s congregation, and the pastor’s.
God Bless everyone.
Galatians 5:19-21
Now the works of the flesh are evident: sexual immorality, impurity, sensuality, idolatry, sorcery, enmity, strife, jealousy, fits of anger, rivalries, dissensions, divisions, envy, drunkenness, orgies, and things like these. I warn you, as I warned you before, that those who do such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.
Enmity? Dissension? Divisions?
Should the name of this blog be Dissension?
Here it is… WE ARE ALL SINNERS! Why pick on a particular sin? Why demand that pastors pick on a particular sin? I do not for one second think that I am above any sinner because I am not homosexual or because I have not committed such and such sin. I also do not think it for me to determine. It for God to determine…
We might be able to see Andy and homosexuality more clearly if we remove the plank out of our eyes. If I did that and I believe I did, then I see Andy and NP reaching out to certain groups of people that might not come to Christ at all. That is step one. The sin is worked out as we grow in Christ but that will never happen if we do not take the first steps and Andy does a wonderful job of getting people to take those first steps.
Can I get an Amen for first steps? AMEN!
Traci, it’s obvious from your comment that you haven’t read the previous comments on this blog. Before you start spouting nonsense you need to read the other comments to avoid appearing uninformed and ignorant.
I read all the comments Gorman, every last one before I posted. In fact, all the comments I read inspired me to post.
I pray that you study words for the rest of your life are enmity, dissension and divisions.
Have a wonderful and blessed life!
Traci, if you had read the comments on this blog you would know that it is about Andy Stanley allowing practicing homosexuals to work in his church and about him saying that a sodomite who left his wife for another sodomite was committing adultery because he had not divorced his wife. Nowhere in the Bible is sodomy called adultery. As has already been stated several times in this blog, believers want everyone to hear the gospel and to be saved. That is not the issue here but rather Stanley’s compromising position on homosexuality.
As I stated in an earlier comment, when a person comes to Christ and experiences the new birth, the Holy Spirit comes to indwell that person and gives them the power to live a life pleasing to God. Of course we still have the flesh, the world, and the devil to fight against but by God’s grace and help, we are more than conquerors because “the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds.” 2 Cor. 10:4.
In First Corinthians Chapter 5 the Apostle Paul tells us how we are to deal with sin in the church.
9 I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.
11 But now I have written unto you not to keep company, if any man that is called a brother be a fornicator, or covetous, or an idolator, or a railer, or a drunkard, or an extortioner; with such an one no not to eat.
12 For what have I to do to judge them also that are without? do not ye judge them that are within?
13 But them that are without God judgeth. Therefore put away from among yourselves that wicked person.
Now to your understanding of “enmity, dissension and division”, in Paul’s list of works of the flesh. These works of the flesh are have nothing to do with speaking out against known practicing homosexuals working in the church as evidenced by Paul’s instructions to the church on how to deal with sin in the church.
The enmity, dissension and division the Apostle Paul was speaking of here had to do with petty jealousies and rivalries by persons in the church who wanted to elevate themselves above others and were teaching doctrines contrary to the Apostles.
Stanley himself is to be blamed for the controversy because he did not and has not made clear to the church his position on homosexuality. As a consequence of his compromising the truth of God’s word he has brought reproach on himself and the church.
I find this all to be very sad. Andy is a great man and pastor who will lead many to the cross unlike blogs like this that simply show ignorance, intolerance, and egos out of control. It is literally humorous that so many people think THEY have all the answers and THEIR interpretation of scripture is correct. And to say you quit attending church because there is not one church that measures up to your standards? Wow
Tony, there is nothing about this blog that shows ignorance, intolerance or egos out of control. Apparently, your interpretation of scripture allows sin and specifically the sin of sodomy to be permitted in the church. Ananias and Sapphira in the early church were struck dead for the sin of lying to God, yet the modern church permits practicing sodomites to work in the church and Bible believing Christians are supposed to keep their Bibles and their mouths shut and allow this abomination in the sight of God to go on as if the church were a gay bar or club instead of the pure bride of Christ. Stanley needs to repent and apologize for allowing this to go on in his church. He is not leading people to Christ but to hell for not telling them the truth and that God is a holy God who said in His word that “without holiness no man shall see the Lord”. Heb. 12:14
We really need to install a “Like” button on this blog. Thanks, Gorman!
In regards to Stanley’s quote, “change cannot be brought about by preaching”, this strikes me as an unburdening of an unnecessary yoke. Christians don’t instigate the heart softening that makes non-believers willing to hear the Gospel, that power rests only with the Holy Spirit. If someone has hardened their heart to the words of Christ, there is nothing we as believers can do to make the Holy Spirit move. It would seem to me that Stanley only meant to humble his position, not make excuses for pastoral lethargy and theological ambiguity.
CSUlove, It is amazing to me how people like yourself come up with such fantastic half baked opinions in an effort to defend Stanley’s unscriptural statements. Do you have any idea how many heretical doctrines are out there being taught which undermine the word of God and are leading people astray? If he keeps on teaching some of this nonsense, he will be ranked with the likes of Copeland, Schuller, Roberts and others who have and are teaching heresies.
The part of Julia’s article which dealt with the importance of preaching is supported not only by the verses she quotes, but by the whole of scripture itself. From the Prophets in the Old Testament to the Apostles in the New, preaching was and continues to be the primary instrument by which God deals with erring and sinful humans. When someone hears the word of God preached, the Holy Spirit uses it to bring conviction to the sinner and makes them realize their need of a Savior.
In the OT when Jonah preached to the Ninevites, they believed his preaching and repented of their sins thereby averting the judgement of God.
In the NT Peter preached to the multitude on the Day of Pentencost and about three thousand were saved.
Acts 2:36-38 Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.
Now when they heard this, they were pricked in their heart, and said unto Peter and to the rest of the apostles, Men and brethren, what shall we do?
Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We are told in Ezekial to warn people and the consequences if we don’t. Ezekial 33:8,9 When I say unto the wicked, O wicked man, thou shalt surely die; if thou dost not speak to warn the wicked from his way, that wicked man shall die in his iniquity; but his blood will I require at thine hand.
Nevertheless, if thou warn the wicked of his way to turn from it; if he do not turn from his way, he shall die in his iniquity; but thou hast delivered thy soul.
So for Stanley, for whatever reason, to denigrate or down play the importance of preaching is as Julia said “truly saddening.”
Gorman # is what pushes me away from Christians. Christians like him are such a stumbling block to my faith. They are so intent on putting a group of scriptures together to support their righteousness. If we put a camera in Gorman’s home…what sin would we find of his? If we published all his thoughts, what uglyness would we see? If we had a movie on every act of his life, what would we see? What about the sin of omission? Does he do any compassionate ministry? Does he visit nursing homes, work at the food pantry, minister to the homeless, the mentally ill? Let’s look at GORMAN.
Some Christians love to elevate the sin of homosexuality to the top. What I have found is I don’t need the Christian to condemn me with their selected Bible verses or their words. I have the HOLY SPIRIT, who convicts me of my wrong behavior. I have gotten to the point where I am shying away from the church. It has such a lack of grace and mercy. And what hypocrites Christians can be.
As far as Andy Stanley….I love his teachings. He points me to God. He brings the Bible alive for me and matures me in my faith. What a gift he has.
How spiritually exhausted I am from hateful Christians.
what is a hateful christian? is it standing to truth? Marie wether you like or not the bible is clear. You cant accomodate your lifestyle to the bible. it is the word of God that should be your triumph card.
It is true that we all have failures and we all commit sin from time to time but if you had the Holy Spirit you wouldnt be calling us hateful christians cause that right there is the babilonian system talking.
You need to understand this homosexuality is been talked a lot this days cause is a growing problem. They wanting to redefine that which God clearly ordered to be a holy union between a man and a woman.
So you see one thing is making a mistake and repenting that living a lifestyle that is againts God’s Order. so its clear, The word of God is clear and we are just saying what is written.
Saying the truth is not “hating” is loving. many churches today fail to grasp the growing problem this is becoming. if the gays do not repent of the gay lyfestyle they will burn in hell period.
Saying “do not judge” is like saying to God, Let it be at least he is here listening to the word of a man. So you see when people refuse to listen to the truth it means they are far from the truth. no one should be mad for christians standing for what is right.
Our kids are been influenced in the school systems, they redefining marriage and forcing theyr abomination unto us and you say this is not a problem?
So you see, this is not about judging a person but watching the works of the evil at works. So we need to preach that they can be freed of that lifestyle and if they do not repent they will burn in hell.
How is not saying anything to make them feel comfortable any good? I personally have been freed of that lifestyle so i know the risks and the growing danger of this gay movement that is trying to infiltrate the governement, society, the school system and even the church.
I know no one is perfect but living a lifestyle you know God hates is walking in open rebellion againts God period. that is not debatable.
The Gospel is not easy to hear, and should never be soft cause we are talking about our souls and about the lies that satan is spreading. Stop looking at the man and look up to christ the Author of our faith.
Even though we are saved by grace, living a sinful life will take you away from God and into the devils hands. We wont stop speaking the truth.
Luis, I appreciated your comment, but especially when you said “we are talking about our souls.” How right you are! This is not some petty debate we are having here to prove we are right and get a ego boost, but what we are talking about is the eternal, everlasting destiny of our souls. Our feeble minds cannot comprehend the magnitude of eternity and that one day we will stand before God and give an account. Because of His love and mercy and the provision he has made for our salvation and redemption by the death of His Son, we should strive to please him in everything we do and say. And because of his grace we will in eternity, forever sing his praises for his great love for us.
Again, thanks for your comment, it was a blessing to me.
Gorman, are you from the Westboro Baptist Church in Topeka, KS?
Marie, what have I said that you consider hateful or hypocritical?
I used to belong to a religious system that elevated man and his teachings above the teachings of Jesus Christ. It was an abusive religious system whose foundational believe system was and still is based on “dreams, visions, imaginations, speaking in tongues(jibberish prayer language) and hearing the voice of god (not God, the Holy Spirit); I choose to call it the lying signs and wonders movement.” They added new and extra revelation to the Word of God in addition to twisting the Scriptures to control and manipulate the pew sitters for their own prestige and gain. It still is an abusive and narcissitic system of man and God loathes it….calling it “strange fire.”
When I was an active part of this religious system, having visions of my own, falling down on the floor getting “drunk in the spirit,” beginning to embrace the teachings of Judaism and falling victim to the old covenant ways, following preacher and pastrixes (female preachers) “words of prophecy” over my life as they had that direct telephone line to god that I did not have (God is not capitalized here as this was a false god they were hearing from, not God, the Holy Spirit), this led us in the church to the false belief system of pride and elitism, believing that we were the only church that knew God and followed the leading of God, the Holy Spirit. It was easy for me to sit there and shout “Amen, Amen, Amen,” in response to the preacher man when he had sermons on homosexuality that were delievered in pride, not love; it was easier for me to shout out “preach it brother!!!!” when he held up Mark Levin’s book entitiled “Liberty and Tyranny” during what the church calls a sermon or message, when he was preaching on freedom and liberty, expounding on a false belief that America is Christian nation and that we as Christians need to take back this nation; it was easy for me to sit there and listen to those who professed to be following Jesus Christ, promote the likes of Kenneth Copeland, Jack Hayford, Beth Moore, Joyce Meyer, Gary Thomas, Rob Bell, Yongi Cho, Jentezen Franklin, Focus on the Family, Jonathon Cahn, Paula White, Joel Osteen, Rick Warren, The Pope, Mother Teresa, Billy Graham, Charisma Magazine, etc., etc., etc…..everyone and everything except the flying spagetti monster!
I was even told by one woman that we are not supposed to eat pork. My world was becoming a whirlwind of religion based on man’s books and I felt that I was more spiritual because I was accepted as a part of this elite group of people that had the patent on the moving of the Holy Spirit. I was accepted as a part of their inner circle….until I began reading the Bible for myself allowing God, the Holy Spirit, to teach and minister to me.
Revelation 18:4 “And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive her plagues.” This is Babylon, the harlot church system that man has set up for himself to worship himself. It is pride and it is idoatry….and goverment system (tax free status anyone), it keeps track of members (attendence stars anyone), it records your giving (letters to be sent out to let you know you are not giving enough, we need that new church building you know, complete with a state of the art sound system designed to blow the ears off your head (I am not trying to be humorous here, my ears used to ring as I exited the old church I once belonged too), and of course the “buy my book on your way out, the table is set up by the door” speeches as the end of our guest speakers sermons.
Where is Jesus and Him crucified in all of this? What has the likes of man done to the One who was brutally abused and suffered His life for us on that tree? All for each one of us, sinful men, women, and children. We have taken the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, which sets men free to follow Him, and have turned it into a smorgesbord of slavery to men and women. Have you ever been “corrected” by the spiritual elite when you do not want to pay $60 to attend a “Christian Women’s Conference”, in addition to an extra $100 for motels and meals, and let us not forget to tip the woman who drove us there? What have we made Jesus into….is He really “for sale?” Is not the Gospel free?
Homosexuality is a huge issue in the religious system of man, not that it is becoming more “out there.’ But where were the preachers who preach against divorce, or living in fornication, or committing adultry, or abuse/rape, pornography, or what about those sins of the thoughts that no one sees….the disgusting lust? Where are those sermons? I will tell you…..if you preached against divorce or any other sexual sin, with the exception of homosexuality because that is our easiest target of this age, the church will hate you, because it is infected with these sins. Would the preachers get those cherished “Amens and preach it brother!” comments from their congregations if they preached againse all of the sins listed above? Or would we leave the temples made with human hands with our heads hanging in shame, our hearts convicted of our own sins, and tears in our eyes because we know that we are living in the Sodom and Gomorrah of our age.
Matthew 9:8-13 “As Jesus passed on from there, He saw a man named Matthew sitting at the tax office. And He said to him, “Follow Me.” So he arose and followed Him. Now it happened as Jesus sat at the table in the house, that behold, many tax collectors came and sat down with Him and His disciples. And when the Pharisees saw it, they said to His disciples, “Why does your Teacher eat with tax collectors and sinners? When Jesus heard that, He said to them, “Those who are well have no need of a physician, but those who are sick. “But go and learn what this means: ‘I desire mercy and not sacrifice .’ For I did not come to call the righteous, but sinners, to repentance.”
I love these passages because Jesus had mercy on me, a wretched sinner, now born again of His Spirit. He has delievered me out of the religion of man filled with hypocrisy and self agendas into a glorious relationship with Him. If God, the Holy Spirit can bring me out of the pagan celebrations of christmas and easter, He certainly can do a work in Andy Stanley’s life as well. Praise Jesus, our Risen King.
Another Marie,
So I first say this. We all have a right to express our beliefs and opinions. You make a statement that I pasted here. “…expounding on a false belief that America is Christian nation and that we as Christians need to take back this nation…”
Before I assume anything, I would like to ask if you would explain your view of the false belief that America is Christian nation. That is not, under any circumstances, a false belief. Maybe I misunderstand what you mean. No question there are those who love to twist history around to fit their beliefs as well promoting a twisted report of the courageous men and women who founded this stilll great nation.
Secondly, from your post, it is clear that you had a very bad experience at your last church. I read the frustration but is it fair or just to use a broad brush and make the inference that it is all Christians?
You mention homosexuality as being the easiest target. To start with, it is on our doorstep. If homosexual marriage is pronounced legal, what is at stake for the denominations and pastor’s that refuse to go before God, to promote a union, that is open and unrepentant sin. Will they face jail for discrimination? A baker is being sued for refusing to make a cake for a homosexual marriage. They are a Christian company and privately owned. So as much as you believe that it is an easy mark for preachers… it IS becoming more “out there.” Another interesting choice of words “out there.” Are you suggesting your view is a system of us versus them? Isn’t that elitist? I do not hate anybody. But God does not tell me to tolerate unrepentant sin to the point of acceptance. Not just homosexuality, any sin. Mine included. I have heard many preachers speak of the sin’s you listed in your post.
It is all very interesting. Among the names that you listed I could not help but to notice a few were off of the SPLC website.
I do absolutely agree that were it not for God Almighty and His mercy I would be bound for hell. Jesus Christ alone is my savior. If God asks at the gate why He should let me in, anything starting with “I” is wrong. It is the finished work of Jesus Christ.
Sola Scriptura. Sola Fide
★”…we are endowed by our Creator…”
Gene, I appreciated your comment and agree with you that militant homosexuals are devoting a lot of time and money to get laws passed which promote their lifestyle. Recently I read where Elton John’s gay lover David Furnish adopted a child. Just another instance where homosexuals are attempting to make their perversion accepted. As I stated in one of my earlier post, that the homosexuals are pushing their way into every area of society. The latest group to cave in to them was the Boy Scouts. I can’t imagine a parent allowing their child to join the Scouts knowing that their child will come in contact with and possibly be influenced by sodomites. I saw a YouTube video where Rachel Maddow interviewed a Ugandan member of parliament who is attempting to get a law passed through their parliament which makes it a crime to influence a child into the homosexual lifestyle. Because of the homosexual threat, many pastors and Christians are speaking out against them. An example is Michael Brown, who is a converted Jew and for 30 years his ministry has been to the Jewish people. Yet, he took time out to write a huge book, over 700 hundred pages, titled “A Queer Thing Happened to America”. For these men like Michael Brown to take time out of their ministry to deal with this homosexual militancy tells me they see it as a huge threat.
The fact that Julia in her article and Dr. Mohler in his article have criticized Andy Stanley for not making his position clear on practicing homosexuals working in the church is to be applauded.
As has been stated several times in this blog, God can save and deliver a homosexual, a drunk, a prostitute, or anyone, no matter what their sin is, who comes to him in faith and repentance.
Please guys, I am so embarrassed to even be called a christian sometimes because of exactly what is going on here, we are so critical and judgmental of our own people. Why is it that christians are so self righteous, God sees ALL sin as equal. He does not differentiate. Maybe its time to read Galations chapter 5 and 6 (5 v 19) the acts of the sinful nature are……impurity…..discord, jealousy, fits of rage, selfish amibtion dissensions, factions….. (6 v 4) Each one should test his own actions…… AND then finally let’s not forget, who of you has arrived and can be found without fault. Oh my, He who began a good work in you …… Can we as christians not put aside our petty disagreement and criticisms of issues that really do not further the Kingdom of God and just get on with dealing with our own lives and considering the plank in our eye before we take the splint out of someone elses. Allow God to use us, work together, where are the fruits of the spirit, love, joy, peace, kindness ….. lets show those to each other. It’s no wonder so many people do not want to enter the doors of churches anymore – we shoot our own people. By doing what we do we just give the devil a foothold to cause dissension, anger, bitterness and resentment in our lives and in the life of the church. God will deal with each of us as He sees fit, let’s just focus on what we do and how we are before God and leave God to deal with everyone as and when He chooses. That way, there probably will be more harmony, because there will be more humility and we will want to serve others before ourselves and Grace will abound.
Cheryl, your comment sounds more like a hippie in a commune than a Christian in a Bible believing church. You like others who have made similar comments have failed to either read the blog or understand what the blog is about. It is about Andy Stanley’s view of homosexuality and about him allowing practicing sodomites to work in his church. If you call yourself a Christian you must believe that the Bible is God’s word and it is your rule of faith and practice. And as the Apostle James said we are not only to hear the word but obey it also.The writers of the NT laid out the principles and doctrine which we as Christians are to live by. Furthermore, they charged those who were over the flock of God to be very diligent in making sure that those under their authority held fast to sound doctrine.
The doctrine of the Apostle on how Christians are to conduct themselves in church is very clear. The Apostles doctrine does not permit Christians to fellowship with so called brethren who are living in open sin. The specific sin that the Apostle Paul dealt with in the early church was fornication. But whatever the sin whether fornication, homosexuality, drunkenness, idolatry, or any other sin, it is not to be tolerated in the church. As Paul said in I Corinthians 5:6 …”. Know ye not that a little leaven leaveneth the whole lump?”.
One last thing. I knew a man who was a drug addict and attended a Unitarian Church. I asked him how he liked it. He said he liked it because the woman pastor never condemned anything. He went on to say that several of the members were homosexuals. Will Andy Stanley’s church become like this Unitarian Church that never condemns anything and never preaches that if you accept the Lord Jesus Christ as your personal Savior that He can transform your life and make you a child of God. Telling people about Jesus, who is the way the truth and the life, and telling them the truth about sin, heaven and hell is the most loving thing you can do for them.
Why is Amy giving her opinion anyway? She is a woman after all. Go on over to 2 Timothy and perhaps you will see that women should not teach. Is that outdated doctrine? Oh does that hurt your feelings? Well according to Amy your feelings aren’t a part of your soul. It seems to me that she believes that whatever you accept at an intellectual level is what determines the state of your soul. Not so. What Andy is saying is that we need to move past intellectual belief (religion) towards a true relationship with Christ. And you can say all you want that you trust in Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, but until your life “bears fruit”, it means nothing to simply say these words. And no one can bear fruit apart from Christ. So in my opinion, you are reducing Christ to someone you just have to talk about a lot and SAY you believe, but there doesn’t actually have to be evidence or fruit in your life. Love is one of the many things Paul refers to as the “fruit of the spirit”. So for you to downplay the importance of this is to lose sight of what a relationship with Christ truly means. Paul wrestled with this in Romans and many of his other letters. So I plead with you like the father pleaded with his eldest son: please do not settle for mere intellectual assent. Don’t settle for legalism or the religion of Christianity. God has so much more for you and for all of us. We are no longer under the law, but under grace. And by the way I’m totally fine with you giving your opinion on anything, I was just trying to make a point of people using scripture in a very legalistic way (thinking that they are doing the right thing).
That gave me a chuckle, Spencer.
The reference is 1 Timothy 2:12..’But I (Paul, male) suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.’ In the verse before this one, he says,’ Let the woman learn in silence with all subjection’ (or in the ESV ‘with all submissiveness’). Paul did not mean women are never allowed to teach. He is talking about teaching men and lording over them. Women are to learn but remain silent…by not attempting to teach men in a church service… and to be always in subjection to men. Men alone are to be pastors or elders in the church…never women. Women can teach but must always do it under the authority of and in submission to Godly men. That is not a legalistic interpretation. It is simply what the text is saying.
So this verse is not a very good example of ‘using a scripture in a very legalistic way’, It says what it says and we should obey it. Amy is doing just that. Not only is this verse not being used in a legalistic sense today…it is being completely ignored! We see more and more women taking on the positions of pastor and elder in complete disregard for the what the Word says.
“What Andy is saying is that we need to move past intellectual belief (religion) towards a true relationship with Christ.”
But what you are missing is that we can’t have a true relationship with Christ until we first understand the doctrines of the faith correctly. If we get the doctrines wrong, we could be following a false Christ…a different Jesus from the one presented in our Bibles. Get your doctrine straight first…then you will have the foundation upon which to build your relationship with Christ. There is an important need of correct understanding of doctrine in the church today. Caring about doctrine doesn’t automatically spell legalism as so many seem suggest now.
“Love is one of the many things Paul refers to as the “fruit of the spirit”.
Yes, you are right. Love is so important and the way we show our love for God is by our obedience to His Word. The Bible clearly teaches homosexuality is a sin. A person claiming to be a born-again Christian, but who continues to live in a homosexual relationship without any conviction that it is wrong, even flaunting it as being something good…if we care for that person, we will lovingly warn him. Tough love… because we have to confront with the truth even when it offends. No,as Christians, we are not under the Law, no longer slaves to sin. We are free to obey God now and by His Holy Spirit we are empowered to do so. If there is no change, no conviction of sin, but a just continuation in a sinful lifestyle, shouldn’t we question that person’s salvation and lovingly try to warn them that they could be a false convert? We are under grace, but we dare not use the grace of God as an excuse to continue in what He has clearly defined as sin.
Spencer, you said “What Andy is saying is that we need to move past intellectual belief (religion) towards a true relationship with Christ.” By intellectual belief I’m assuming you mean intellectual (mental) assent to the gospel without ever having been born again or transformed by the Spirit of God. I’m sure there are many who have grown up in a church and have heard the gospel, but who have never experienced the new birth. Andy Stanley himself may be one of those persons. If he was truly born again, would he equivocate on important scriptural teachings such as those against the practice of homosexuality. Another example of someone who equivocates on scripture and the gospel message is Joel Osteen. Whenever Joel Osteen is asked about Jesus being the only Savior and remedy for sin, he responds by saying “I don’t know”. He said in an interview with Larry King, that when he was in India with his father, that he met Hindus who loved God. When asked about Mormons and other cults being saved he says “I don’t know.” Are these (Stanley and Osteen) true ministers of the Gospel or wolves in sheep’s clothing? The Bible tells me that there is no other name under heaven given among men whereby we must be saved and that Jesus is “the door” by which we enter into heaven. If there is another way what difference does it make if we are a Christian? If Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, JW, Atheist, homosexuals, drunks, liars, et al will make it to heaven, why bother trying to live the Christian life. Perhaps Stanley and Osteen don’t believe the gospel and that Jesus is the only way. I heard Dave Hunt in one of his lectures talk about some of these well known, so called ministers, as not believing in God. He said “I don’t believe they believe there is a God. If they did, and that one day they would stand before Him, how could they say and do such things. God help us to ” Cast down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bring into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;” 2 Cor.10:5.