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Amy is co-host and blogger for both Stand Up for the Truth and Naomi's Table, two ministries that give her the opportunity to write and talk about Jesus all day long. She has written, produced and broadcast in the realm of television and radio news, magazine business journals and marketing materials.

The Matthew Vines video ~ and a response

People are calling it an “eye-opener.” A “mind-changer.” And perhaps you will, too. Lot’s of folks including Christian pastors have been considering a video from a 21-year-old gay man, and whether they should evolve their minds about what Scripture says homosexuality.  A new video from Matthew Vines is influencing many minds and hearts to wonder if God perhaps condones homosexuality. This young man has made a compelling case in his hour-long teaching about what he feels is the true context of what God actually meant.
Think it wouldn’t sway you?  Here is the video, but do read the rest of this post first before you click Play:

Matthew is very smart (he is a student at Harvard), and very humble. That combination has swayed Christians from the Truth for centuries, and Matthew is very convincing in his bold case for gay marriage.   If you choose to listen to his case, I would urge you to also read the response to Matthew from another Matthew, 23-year-old Matt Moore. Matt experienced the homosexual lifestyle for most of his life until the grace and love of Jesus Christ transformed him. I’d love to have him come share his incredible testimony on our program, as several others have done.  Here is Matt’s response to the Matthew Vines viral video, plus a link to Matt’s page.

God Condones Homosexuality? (Response to Matthew Vines)

Matthew,

Unlike many of the people that disagree with you, I can actually empathize with you. I am just as attracted to the same sex as you are, and like you I did not choose those attractions. I am your age, almost 23, and for the past two years I have also been on a search for truth. My search differs from yours, though. You see, I was already unashamedly accepting of my homosexual feelings and was out to everyone that I knew by the age of 20. Then, in Sept of 2010, God interrupted my life and caused me to take a more massive U-Turn than I could have ever imagined. Over the past two years I have come to know God, study His Word, and understand homosexuality in a way that I never had before.

Firstly, I am not even going to debate you concerning Sodom and Gomorrah or the two passages in Leviticus that clearly point out homosexual behavior is an abomination. If I hear one more thing like “well do you eat shellfish or watch football? that’s a sin!”, I will spontaneously com-bust. We are at this time under the New Covenant, by the blood of Jesus, and the ultimate source of clarity and truth about how we are to live will come from the New Testament Scriptures. I am not by any means voiding out the importance, truth or relevance of the Levitical Law; but because of the confusion it may cause some of the readers I will refrain from it for the time being and focus on the three NT Scriptures that you also addressed.

Romans 1

” For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth. For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them. 20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse. For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened. Claiming to be wise, they became fools, and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images resembling mortal man and birds and animals and creeping things.

Therefore God gave them up in the lusts of their hearts to impurity, to the dishonoring of their bodies among themselves, because they exchanged the truth about God for a lie and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever! Amen.

For this reason God gave them up to dishonorable passions. For their women exchanged natural relations for those that are contrary to nature; and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error.

And since they did not see fit to acknowledge God, God gave them up to a debased mind to do what ought not to be done. They were filled with all manner of unrighteousness, evil, covetousness, malice. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, maliciousness. They are gossips, slanderers, haters of God, insolent, haughty, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents, foolish, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32 Though they know God’s righteous decree that those who practice such things deserve to die, they not only do them but give approval to those who practice them.

- Romans 1:18-32

In your argument, you firmly state that you believe this passage, but say that the rest of us have remained unaware of the true contextual meaning. You claim that the homosexuals this passage is referring to are people who always had heterosexual feelings, but in defiance to God they turned away from him and adopted homosexual behaviors, which are contrary to their nature. You tell us that this passage isn’t applicable to people who were born homosexual, because same-sex desires are natural to them.

Basically, you say that if your born gay, same-sex relationships are okay. But if your born straight, it’s not okay. In fact, you claim that if a person who thinks they are gay gets married and has a family with someone of the opposite sex, then they are in sin and deep idolatry since they are doing what is contrary to their “true nature”. You believe, according to this Scripture, that God has made some of us gay and some of us straight, and that we should live according to how he oriented us.

I am sorry, but you have to have a deeply darkened heart to be able to believe such a foolish lie and extract such an erroneous interpretation from this passage in Romans.

Everything that you have stated above about “innate same sex attraction” being the justifiable reason to pursue relationship with a member the same sex can not be found in Romans nor any other book, chapter, line, or verse in the Bible. You are taking your own ideas and projecting them into the Scripture rather than taking the Scripture and allowing it to shape what you believe. If you want to believe homosexuality is not unnatural, by all means I guess you have the right to do so. But in no way, shape or form can you use Romans 1 to back that position up.

In the first few chapter of Romans, Paul is making a point to group us all into the classification of sinners. He points out that we have all been given a knowledge of God… yet we have all suppressed it and rejected Him. He states that because of our stubborn rejection God has given us over into the grip of our sins… with some it is homosexual passions and desires…but ultimately we all fall into the list of over twenty sins as the end of Chapter 1. That is the point of Romans 1… pointing out all of us as sinners… not just some of us.

1 Corinthians 6 & 1 Timothy 1

“Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind,”- 1 Corinthians 6:9

“For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;”- 1 Timothy 1:10.

The references to homosexuality in the above verses come from the Greek words [malaokois] (effeminate)and [arsenokoitai] (abusers of themselves with mankind).

Arsenokoitai is a term that Paul seems to have coined, in which he used two words to form the one. The word is made up of the two terms “bed” and “male” in the plural sense, hence we see he means two men in a bed. You say that this carries more of an economic context, such as prostitution, rather than same-sex sexual sin. You claim that 1 Corinthians 6 isn’t even directed toward sexual sin contextually. The problem is that you are once again adding in your own ideas into the text and also just plain wrong. The context of this part of 1 Corinthians is in fact sexual sin, as we see Paul rebuking the church in regard to the man who had sexual relations with his mother in Chapter 5… immediately proceeding from Chapter 5 carrying over his theme of sexual immorality into Chapter 6.

Again, Arsenokoitai: Two men, one bed… pretty clear.

Now, malaokois is another term you also addressed and informed the viewers of your video that it’s definition in the greek was “soft”, which is true. Many who agree with you say that we can’t really know what Paul meant by using this word and harshly forbid that anyone draw any lines from this word, “soft”, to homosexuality. I have one problem with this…. it’s right after the word describing homosexual behavior in the midst of two entire chapters addressing sexual immorality. Therefore I would say it is relevant to the issue of sexual sin and is in fact defining the “passive” partner in homosexual relations or even describing those who are homosexual who act like women… which we still see much of that behavior today.

But on that note, pertaining to effeminacy, I will say one thing… there are many ignorant and arrogant Christians who look at someone like me and say that I am effeminate because I don’t wear camouflage, watch football, and shoot stuff while I sit in a tree. That’s…. retarded. I’m sorry, I can’t think of a better word to describe the redneck-idiocy of that ideology. Biblical masculinity is defined as being the leader, authoritative, protective, the cultivator, the provider, etc. That is biblical masculinity. So the church, and our culture, needs to stop coming down on guys who are into arts, music, theatre, etc. Stop telling these people they need to change or that they are “Fags”. There is nothing masculine about feeding a little deer all year long then going and getting up in a tree and shooting it. If you want to be masculine, jump out of that tree and tear you clothes off and chase that deer down and kill it with your bare hands! …… that’s extreme. Sorry. But you catch my drift…

(And all credit to Matt Chandler for that vivid imagery used to mock cultural masculinity, love that guy)

And while I’m at it I’ll go off on another tangent. It’s time the gay community stops drawing upon the sympathy of its hearers with ideas of oppression and hatred and being singled out among people groups. That is NOT true. I have lived an openly gay lifestyle.. in the south… IN THE BIBLE BELT… and I was accepted by all and condoned by most. The gay community is not persecuted or oppressed in the slightest in our western society; not in any way how they make it out to be. I do not deny that in rare, individual cases that hatred is shown… but as a whole… the gay community is more accepted by society than the Christian community. And each day our society is moving toward more of a “toleration” mindset… which I am not saying is a bad thing. I am glad gay people are not beaten and ridiculed as they used to be, because nobody should endure that. But let’s define “toleration”. The gay community has to stop accusing Christian’s of “hate speech” and intolerance because we share with them what the Bible says about homosexuality and the redemption found in Jesus Christ. Most Christians (obviously excluding westboro baptist) are not exercising demeaning hatred toward homosexuals, they are just exercising their right to share what they believe is the truth. The truth that would and could save their soul.

Okay let me reign this back in to the main point. Matthew, and all others who are advertising and believing this “gay-gospel”: Your extreme perversions of the Scripture are going to be the death of you. Please, ask the Lord to soften your heart and let you come to the Scripture ready to hear him rather than coming to the Scripture, deriving parts from it, and adding in your own ideas to make it flow with your acceptance of homosexuality.

If you are a professing Christian who accepts your homosexuality and believes the outrageous interpretations that people like Matthew Vine’s are presenting, please check your heart. Examine yourself and see if you truly love Jesus. Not the “Jesus” you’ve created with your imagination who condones everything you do and just wants you to have your “best life now”. I mean the Jesus of the Scriptures, who fulfilled the Scriptures, who was crucified for the sins of His people and raised for their justification. It is only in this Jesus that salvation is found.

(Source!)

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86 Responses to “The Matthew Vines video ~ and a response”

  1. Catherine #

    I found Matthew's response to be right on, yet could not have been more loving. This is a great educational tool that we can use as we run across those that are living in homosexual relationships, yet claim Christ as their Savior. I myself know a few that have been fooled into thinking along the same lines as Matthew Vines. Thank you so much for posting this!

    May 8, 2012 at 8:50 AM Reply
  2. Examine yourself and see if you truly love Jesus. Not the “Jesus” you’ve created with your imagination who condones everything you do and just wants you to have your “best life now”.

    That's the problem with the broad spectrum of so-called Christianity in America: they make up their own Jesus.

    Good post.

    May 8, 2012 at 9:58 AM Reply
  3. Amen! Thank you Matthew for the very loving yet very biblically sound response you offered Matthew Vines. I am greatly encouraged to share this response with those who are involved in or defend the gay lifestyle and use the "shellfish" argument to support it. My heart so breaks for the wrong justification they are choosing.

    May 9, 2012 at 6:27 AM Reply
  4. A.C. #

    While this is an equally compelling and thoughtful response to Matthew Vines, if you just praise it and flat out agree with Matthew Moore I suggest you go read his main page, the story he gives about his homosexuality leads me to not agree with his response.

    Mr. Moore is, sadly, judging by what he notes in his website, a victim of sexual abuse. Abuse he did not report nor discuss with anyone, which one can believe ultimately led to his constant craving for attention, promiscuous sexual behavior, and excessive drinking. He is struggling with the fact that he was not exposed to healthy sexual relationships and was exposed to sexual situations way too early in life. His behavior and issues have nothing to do with being gay. The resulting behavior that caused his downward spiral would and does happen to straight victims as well. Suppressing his sexuality in the name of Jesus without actually addressing the problems will most certainly lead to further heartbreak and self-destructive behavior.

    Faith is a good start for Mr. Moore, but condemning and suppressing his sexuality for behavior that was not caused by him being gay is not the answer, he needs guidance and counseling–not a bunch of holy rollers telling him to "transform" himself, to "not give in to lust". You cannot change your sexuality, it is a part of you when you are created.

    May 11, 2012 at 6:26 AM Reply
  5. JIM #

    There are always those who want to "rain on someone's parade" Those of you who
    try to discredit Matthew Vines' work/research/conclusions have not spend the hours/years and effort he did. Why would you want to add to the discrimination and hate we have lived with for so long–that was based upon Bible verses that are translated totally incorrect! Put your simplicity aside and also your need to be "top dog" and think about civil rights and God's love for all he created (including those he made who have an innate attraction for their same sex).

    May 25, 2012 at 5:58 PM Reply
  6. Kathy Baldock #

    Having just spent another weekend at a conference with about a hundred of my gay Christian brothers and sisters in Christ, I am saddened by stories like Matt Moore's. He has done what so may gay people do when confronted with Christianity. They duct taped together their behaviors and their orientation and present them as a package that Jesus did not ask for , but the church has.
    I think Moore will eventually find that the renewal he experienced in Christ is valid and worthy and would have changed his promiscuity, but ultimately, not his orientation. He is in the "honeymoon" phase likely. MANY gay Christians sat there believing this is what Christ required of them.
    When you come to a place of willingness to lay the golden calf of KNOWING what these verses say and KNOWING what they mean and you step aside and approach the dogma from a different POV, you may see that the traditional view no longer holds.
    I see CLEARLY the Holy Spirit in the lives of my gay Christian friends. In the lives of those who seek partners and who are partnered in committed relationship. I see fruits, changed lives and GOd's gifts and wisdom. Their spirit resonates with mine. SO….what am I then to do with there verses. Clearly my friends are Christian, so maybe, not so clearly I KNOW what those verses say. So, I go back to them and ask the Spirit for understanding since a relationship with God is of Spirit and not bound by INTERPRETATION which may be flawed.
    When I revisited the verses, as did Matthew Vines, who by the way is 22 and a friend of mine, I came to new understanding and it DEVASTATED me that I had held such egregious judgment against an entire class of people.
    The judgment WILL come on the church, but not for the "liberal" views some hold on same sex relationships, but for the deep rejection and offense against the glbt community based on HUMAN bias of an entire group of people supported by HUMAN understanding of black words on what pages.
    If you were to challenge yourselves in relationship, you would find yourselves seeing
    God in the very Spirits of those you dismiss and actively seek to oppress. THe revival happening in the gay Christian community is stunning! God, thankfully does not need the understanding or permission of his children that are too lazy or prideful or fearful to lay down the need to be right. I did this ten years ago. I am now an advocate for the glbt Christian community. My own relationship with God has deepened because I laid aside my pride and was willing to be wrong. You are missing the beauty of the Body in
    its fullness in the prideful, I know it all dogma you hold. You will not be able to hold on to that if you were to be brave and go hear the voice of the oppressed crying in the wilderness. the Spirit IS there. You will see . . .

    May 30, 2012 at 1:57 AM Reply
  7. Eddie #

    THANK YOU SO MUCH MR. MOORE!! The truth is what will set you free. Not "my truth", my "orientation", or "my" interpretation of the text! Only God's truth, rightly interpreted, {and yes, there is a right way to interpret scripture, and Matthew Vine did a HORRIBLE job of doing it!} will bring true freedom! God is pleased with you my brother. No matter how much flack you get from the gay community, so called, "gay christians", or anyone else, keep speaking the truth in love! The body of Christ so desperately needs you and others who have allowed God to bring freedom in their lives from sexual sin and bondage. I know many former homosexuals who are so grateful to God for their freedom and true identity in Christ. In every one of their lives, there was a reason for the same sex attraction. They were not "born that way"! God revealed to them what caused it, and began healing them from the memories of the hurt, abuse, abandonment, and whatever else may have caused the sexual brokenness. Thank God for His love,mercy, grace and deliverance in Christ Jesus! Be encouraged Matt, God is on your side! {Isaiah 54:15-17} SELAH.

    May 30, 2012 at 2:32 PM Reply
    • Catherine #

      I agree Eddie. :-) True conversion is a change of heart and a change of nature. Both of these don't come from anything inside of ourselves, because there is nothing good inside of us that would intrinsically lead us to Christ. Without the leading of the Holy Spirit, none of us would willing look to Jesus as the only path to being reconciled to Him, but would continue to find a way to get to Him on our own terms (including twisting scripture instead of looking at the full counsel). I echo Eddie's encouragement to you Matt Moore. Continue to "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." (2 Tim. 2:15)

      May 31, 2012 at 7:19 AM Reply
  8. Steve #

    Thank you, Matthew Moore, for your bold, loving stand for the truth. Jesus told us that the truth would make us free, and It truly has in your case. I especially appreciate your confession of your continual struggle with temptation. None of us chose to be born with the particular temptations to sin which we have; but all of us must confess, repent, and trust our Lord Jesus Christ to cleanse us (1 John 1:5-10).

    June 11, 2012 at 6:20 PM Reply
  9. R. M. Namaste #

    Abomination © 10/10/87 Dr. R. M. Namaste’ http://www.webspawnerom/users/ARCLiberty

    Let’s stop/think: words have multiple meanings,
    Than handed down in slanted or biased leaning.

    See `tear’ to get feeling of what I’m explaining.
    Definitions: cry, damage by ripping, hurrying.

    Bible interpreted/translated by misogynists,
    Used abomination to condemn homosexuals/feminists.

    Examine the meaning/context from where it came,
    It translates to `second choice’ – no blame.

    Abominate also means deprecate – value is less,
    Does not mean that lesser is no and not a yes.

    Webster’s 3rd New Int. Dic. Gives example,
    Wooden-replaced by metal = not hated or loathful.

    If birth control is used, sex is an abomination,
    For conception is deprecated – a depreciation.

    For those who quote the Bible, note Leviticus,
    Chapter 18, verses 6 thru 24 raises the fuss.

    In same sentence: sex during menses equals same,
    Abomination has not achieved homosexual fame.

    In the beginning according to Biblical source,
    Incest & polygamy were guided for intercourse.

    Both held in high value to perpetuate the race,
    And they were not deprecated or held so base.

    Bible held up as source of prejudice by leaders,
    Who claim they act as spiritual righteous seeders.
    Failing to hear message of Jesus who came,
    And said that love was for each and all the same.

    Beware of false prophets who dare to assume,
    We can interpret God’s mind without room.
    I pray we explore more the mystery of God’s ways,
    Inspiring us to love/respect ALL all of our days.###

    AssociationRenaissanceCreators@yahoo.com

    July 7, 2012 at 6:36 AM Reply
  10. lmb #

    Directed at the author of the response, but still relevant here:

    1) "The rest of us" haven't "remained unaware of the true contextual meaning". There are quite a few people who actually do read the bible, study it in its various translations, and even make an effort to understand the languages in which it was originally written. Those of us whose knowledge and understanding of the bible surpasses simply quoting a few dozen convenient selections to make ourselves feel better have been aware of the points he makes throughout this presentation for a significantly long time. Everything he said with regards to interpretation and context makes perfect sense to any rational, objective, clear-headed, properly educated human. These are not new ideas. People have been discussing some of these points for centuries. We just tend to not be as loud as the people who are too arrogantly certain to actually, you know, study the text that's supposedly the unerring governing authority on how one lives and acts. Probably because we've seen what that arrogant certainty and the people who carry it so proudly can and will do.
    2) 'In fact, you claim that if a person who thinks they are gay gets married and has a family with someone of the opposite sex, then they are in sin and deep idolatry since they are doing what is contrary to their “true nature”.' No, that is not what he claimed, but coming from someone who clearly likes to pick and choose from the subject matter, I'm not surprised you came to this conclusion. You are wrong for several reasons. First, a person who "thinks" they are gay is not the same as a person who *is* gay. Not everyone has had a barrage of unfortunate life events which may have made such things confusing for a young child. For a child growing up in a healthy environment, it's not even a matter of "Am I gay?" so much as "I'm different". Children and young people only struggle with this because of the hostile outside forces that deem it bad and something to be hidden or changed, which is utterly dehumanizing.
    My point is this: If anyone who is unsure of any significant part of who they are – whether it's sexuality, their self-worth, their religion or faith, their ability to interact with other humans in a healthy and compassionate way – quite frankly, has no business getting married and creating more humans. Matthew Vines said it would be against the nature of someone who is only attracted to the same sex to force a relationship with someone of the opposite sex – someone whom he's not attracted to or in love with. You got it right at first, with the last sentence of your first paragraph, but then totally borked it by pulling something completely different out of your ass, saying he claimed that someone who "thinks he's gay" would be in sin if he married a woman. This is drastically different than someone who *knows* he's gay committing to a lifelong, romantic relationship with someone that he isn't romantically interested in, though arguably equally as unfortunate.
    The former, in my opinion, is not only sad, but also cruel. It's sad, because that's a terrible way to live one's life – depriving one's self of the very thing humans need to survive and thrive – connection. Hiding, ignoring, condemning – anything but accepting – a very real and unchangeable part of who you are is a serious hurdle to genuine happiness. It's emotionally unsustainable, and it almost always leads to extremely destructive outcomes. And It's cruel to all the other people impacted by that commitment – a wife, children, extended family – because the committer's heart would never truly be in line with the life he's leading. The kind of unhappiness that grows in self-loathing and self-deception spreads like cancer. I know; I've lived in it, with a father spending the vast majority of his life hiding from himself, hating himself, and projecting that hate onto others, disguised as some kind of warped, righteous "tough love" that people like you administer so liberally. I've also seen it destroy lives countless times. In the bible belt.
    3) 'You believe, according to this Scripture, that God has made some of us gay and some of us straight, and that we should live according to how he oriented us.'
    How does that seem any less likely than an all-powerful, all-knowing, loving God making broken people – innocent children born into a broken, sinful state – and then telling people to kill them if they every try to do what makes them happy? I think the deeply darkened heart is closer to you than you think. Project much? Oh wait…
    4) 'You are taking your own ideas and projecting them into the Scripture rather than taking the Scripture and allowing it to shape what you believe.' Like I said before, the points that Vines so eloquently and precisely explains are not new ideas. They have been researched, discussed, criticize and revised by many people far more qualified to interpret Greek, Hebrew and Latin than I suspect you are, and people who probably took more than the 101s for Psych, History and Anthro at some community college in Alabama. So yeah. Who's projecting again?
    5) Your != you're
    6) 'Again, Arsenokoitai: Two men, one bed… pretty clear.' See #4.
    7) People disagree with attributing the definition of "homosexual" to a word that directly translates into "soft" because it translates into "soft," not "homosexual". Now, you clearly have quite a few problems, but with regards to this, your problem is entirely based on your uneducated opinion of what the previous words meant (again, see #4). And that bit about how we still see homosexuals who act like women simply amplifies your ignorance. I'll give you the cliff's notes version of the subject of gender vs. sexuality, lest you get too distracted with drugs and booze to make it all the way through the class: Gender Identity has absolutely nothing to do with Sexuality, though they do share some common traits. Both are irrelevant to the character of an individual; both can be either fluid or rigid or somewhere in between; and both are subject of insane amounts of hostility, bigotry, ignorance, hate, and self-righteous judgment.
    8) 'Your extreme perversions of the Scripture are going to be the death of you.' Actually, it's *your* extreme perversion of the gospel that has been and like will continue to be the death of countless people who are gay, might be gay, or just maybe look a little gay. It is people like you, who are too afraid to address the real issues in your own life, and so pick and choose your fuel to attack perceived issues in others' lives, who wreak havoc on people just trying to be happy and decent human beings. It's the mentality you maintain that drives people to tie young men to fenceposts and beat them to death, or organize entire foundations devoted to criminalizing, marginalizing and dehumanizing people who pose absolutely no threat to you.
    9) I'm really surprised I managed to get through this whole article. Embarrassing grammar aside, you really make zero logical sense.
    10) I think you should check your heart, Sunshine. Perhaps all that coke and ketamine has it a little offbeat these days.

    Fortunately, I broke free from the cult of "traditional" US Christianity a long time ago, and so am free to live my life being a decent and happy person with a clear conscience and a solid sense of self worth, without having to judge or condemn everyone who's doing the things I wish I had the balls to do myself. I have no expectations of ever being able to get you to understand exactly how ludicrous and out of touch with reality you are, but hopefully this can serve as some flicker of hope of other possibilities for your future readers, after you've pushed them that much deeper into the self-loathing and self-perpetuating misery that too often either turn people into the likes of you, or corpses.

    August 8, 2012 at 12:38 AM Reply
  11. Deb #

    So, if a practicing homosexual can be a Christian then I guess a practicing adulterer, pedophile, fornicator, theif and murderer can also be a Christian? Yes, it is easy to twist scripture to read what one wants it to read and thus excuse one's behavior, but that is not the truth. That is not what Jesus says
    .

    August 12, 2012 at 4:14 PM Reply
    • lmb #

      First of all, you're either completely dense or kind of a terrible human being to compare homosexuals – people who present absolutely zero threat to you and your well-being and have, in fact, contributed incalculably to your everyday life and activities – to thieves, murderers and pedophiles. But then, if you weren't a terrible human being, I'm guessing you wouldn't need to put so much energy into looking down your nose at so many people.

      Also, I have two words for you: Ted Haggard.

      Also, talk about twisting the words of the bible to your own benefit. How's that eye log doin' ya?

      August 12, 2012 at 4:52 PM Reply
    • GAY Christian #

      Do you even READ your Bible??? Or do you just trust what your preacher tells you?

      August 28, 2012 at 9:27 AM Reply
  12. Korland #

    @Deb: Actually, yes, that's exactly what's being said because Jesus said ALL. ALL can't come if people keep blocking the doors of the church. Had it occurred to you that if you would step aside and let people come to experience Jesus a change might happen? Oh but I don't just mean a change for "them". And maybe the point is to stop quenching the Spirit and allow that power to transform us all (yes, you included). The requirement isn't to change before you come. The requirement is to come as you are.

    And by the way, all, if you're so sure that you know the scripture (I won't even address the backstory on how the Bible, as we know it, got constructed), what need have you of God? If you already know it, what guidance is there for the Holy Spirit to do for you? I dare you to stop knowing and start asking (which, by the way, is what deepens relationships of any stripe). See what God can do in your heart then.

    August 17, 2012 at 11:44 PM Reply
  13. Korland #

    Correction: *squelching the Spirit. That is all.

    August 17, 2012 at 11:48 PM Reply
  14. Daniel Klembara #

    Please apologize me for my grammar, english is not my native language.

    For Mr. Moore and others that encouraging us to open our hearts to truth:

    1.If the god revealed us the truth for this topic why its still so unclear, i never saw quote that would inherit message : man should not choose a man for his spouse, life time companion, even if its based not on sex, but love and understanding, same pays for women..- even if your interpretation of the bible (you fastly claims that is not our right to make our own truth, the truth is only one we can agree on that, but you just typically selfishly giving the patent of truth into your hands, what you take for granted is also just your interpretation) is right, no gay that lives the complex homosexual relationships desiring for emotional fullfilment can accept the sinfulness of homosexual intercorse as the reason for stopping love his partner.
    Its cynical, sex oriented way of thinking.

    2.One another thing and more important, for us that didnt experienced shamefull trauma and had been gay even before we could name it and realize it, and for us who arent under the pressure of the church, without giving it context withot analyzing it – the romantical longing for intimacy and closeness with the person of same sex never ever had any sign of something unclean.

    The truth speaks on me directly, when i look into eyes of my partner or hold his hand, the truth you talk about is one of the strongest and most beautiful things I and milions of simmilar people experiences. Its the reason why we are able to endure so much pain, risk our lifes, its that beautiful. I can tell the difference between being just sexully aroussed and crying by happines of being able to talk with my loving one after long time. What i feel is holy feel.

    I even had long lasting relationship without sex, cause of certain reasons, and I never regreted those years.

    You are right, the truth speaks on us, and if the god exist he gave me the direct signals that homosexuality is saint, as any other kind of non abusive love.

    August 24, 2012 at 11:06 AM Reply
    • Daniel Klembara #

      I do apologize for my last sentence, its the way i make thigns simply, i should say: homosexual love is saint.

      August 24, 2012 at 11:13 AM Reply
  15. GAY Christian #

    How about ADULTERY! ADULTERY is listed as an ABOMINATION. A man who marries a divorced woman is an ADULTERER (Matthew 5:32 NEW TESTAMENT) "But I tell you that anyone who divorces his wife, except for sexual immorality, makes her the victim of adultery, and anyone who marries a divorced woman commits adultery."

    A person who LOOKS at a person in lust is an ADULTERER for he has already sinned in his heart. (Matthew 5:28 NEW TESTAMENT) Does your husband, boyfriend or son have a "swimsuit issue" hanging on his wall???

    DID or DID NOT Jesus die to take away the old law? Colossians 2:14 says "He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross." So is that taking away the ENTIRE old law, or just the pieces that fit into our bubble?

    August 28, 2012 at 8:59 AM Reply
  16. GAY Christian #

    Great research!!!!!!! He is voicing his frustrations toward the men who RAPED him.

    August 28, 2012 at 9:00 AM Reply
  17. GAY Christian #

    So the question for those of you that support the "response" to Matthew Vines video is this…..Did you even bother to view the video or did you just read the response and agree more with the conservative response????

    I have read several responses below that seem to imply that there is only 1 way to read the Bible and that's the way of the person making the post. EACH and EVERY person that reads the Bible COULD have a totally different interpretation of what a particular verse means to them. You are correct, JESUS is the deciding factor, but trying to FORCE your views on people is a SIN. Just because someone does NOT believe EVERYTHING the way you do, does not mean they are condemned to hell.

    The words from Mr. Vines are those asking for you to do what the Bible commands, treat others with respect and love. How can telling someone they are going to hell adhere to either of those commands?

    Yes, you are to point out the sins of others, but that does NOT mean preach a sermon against it once a month. How many sermons have you heard that preach against STEALING (one of the 10 commandments) or telling you to honoring your parents (another of the 10 commandments). How about a sermon on NOT using the Lord's name in vain, adultery, LYING? I guess someone being GAY is more WRONG than any of these other things, things that ARE decisions made. Contrary to public opinion, being GAY, is not a choice.

    Is "Thou shalt not be GAY" one of the commandments I missed somehow? How can this one subject be the focus of so much hatred coming from the church? The reason so many gay people have turned away from God is because of the opinions of the church which condemns them. Do you really work toward retrieving lost souls??

    Churches minister to those people that have DISOBEYED the 10 commandments, but because a person was BORN GAY, they are condemned to hell and have no chance of going to heaven.

    Does that sound like a loving and caring God???

    August 28, 2012 at 9:20 AM Reply
    • Jill #

      The only difference in the sins that you described is that only ONE of them is defended as being a non-sin. We can all convince the world and even ourselves that our favorite sin is not really sin, but we need to remember that God will NOT be mocked. It is HE who we will have to stand before all by ourselves. Forsake sin out of gratefulness and cling to the Savior.

      November 16, 2012 at 4:40 PM Reply
  18. GAY Christian #

    There is no such thing as an "ex-gay". They are lying to you and themselves.

    August 28, 2012 at 9:35 AM Reply
  19. Catherine #

    "Churches minister to those people that have DISOBEYED the 10 commandments, but because a person was BORN GAY, they are condemned to hell and have no chance of going to heaven."

    So then then men born with a natural attraction to young boys should also be considered as having a legitimate sexual orientation with its accompanying moral propriety? You might want to think this one through.

    To jump to the end of the argument, the problem with using genetics as an excuse to justify behavior is that whatever impulse we might be born with, (I can guarantee that since we all are depraved we were all born with one) must be considered normal.

    August 28, 2012 at 9:42 AM Reply
  20. You've said so much in your post, but I want to respond to this for now:
    "The reason so many gay people have turned away from God is because of the opinions of the church which condemns them. Do you really work toward retrieving lost souls??"

    I agree that many have indeed turned away from the Church for those reasons, and that we should be caring about people's souls. That being said, you seem to have labeled all Bible-believing Christians as hateful, which is just not true.

    The vast majority of authentic Christians do not hate gay people, but neither do we wish to abandon the truth of what God has written to us about these things. Once you begin to question Him ("hath God really said?"), then you go down a very dangerous path of deceiving yourself and eventually others.

    As nice a man as Matthew Vines is, I am afraid that this is where he has ventured. And sadly, he has taken many fine people along with him.

    My hope and my prayer is that they would cling more tightly to the Truth of His Word and their identity in Christ than their identity as a homosexual being.

    August 28, 2012 at 9:49 AM Reply
  21. Catherine #

    Agreed Amy! A thoughtful and loving post! I am surrounded by many loving Christians that are so willing to patiently and methodically show any sinner the way to a loving and forgiving God.

    August 28, 2012 at 10:03 AM Reply
  22. Daniel Klembara #

    To Amy Spreeman:

    Once you begin to question Him (“hath God really said?”), then you go down a very dangerous path of deceiving yourself and eventually others.

    Once there isnt any clear message (no, condemning homosexual sex wont do the job) god didnt left us any other choice. By your attitude we should follow the OLD way not the RIGHT way.

    To Catherine:

    So then then men born with a natural attraction to young boys should also be considered as having a legitimate sexual orientation with its accompanying moral propriety? You might want to think this one through.

    OFCORSE NOT! Honestly how long you did thought this through before posting it? It so sad people with such a lazyness block gay marriages. Let me help you:
    In case of gay relationships we talk about two adult persons, in case of young boys and men relationships we talk about unproportional abusive relationship.

    Thats the point- homosexual relationship doesnt harm one of sides. Now honestly thats argument we shold think of? THERE IS NO EVIDENCE OF HOMOSEXUAL RELATIONSHIPS DOING ANY HARM- till you have no proof to claim otherwise just keep this medieval interpretation of biblic morality out of law makig organs.

    Your sentiment doesnt count.

    August 28, 2012 at 2:43 PM Reply
  23. Rose #

    Something rarely talked about in all the politically correct rhetoric about gay 'rights' are the very serious health risks of the gay lifestyle to the people who engage in it, to both men and women. The American College of Pediatricians has a project called factsaboutyouth.com where they attempt to educate parents and youth about the very real risks involved in this lifestyle. Please take a few minutes to read what is presented at this website. Before you accuse this source of being 'homophobic', read these physicians' statement:

    "The Facts project makes no moral judgments about one’s sexual orientation. It presents a science-based perspective concerning the development of non-heterosexual attractions among school-aged children. It is from an interest in the optimum health and well-being of these children and adolescents that Facts operates. Its intent is to prevent their innocently wandering into a lifestyle that may not be of their choosing and that has been shown to carry serious health risks. For those older adolescents and adults who, after much personal reflection and without school encouragement or coercion, identify as homosexual, we offer no objection except to point out the health risks of this lifestyle."

    Under 'Health Risks', you will find that 'gay and bisexual men lose up to 20 years of life expectancy. Common sexual practices among gay men lead to numerous STDs and physical injuries, some of which are virtually unknown in the heterosexual population. Lesbians are also at higher risk for STDs.' If you click the headings for Male or Female Sexual Behavior, though it does get pretty graphic, the article explains the sexual behaviors gay people engage in and lists all the diseases and injuries associated with those behaviors. Frightening! 'The rate of primary and secondary syphilis among men having sex with men is more than 46 times that of other men and more than 71 times that of women.' When we misuse the human body in a way it was never intended to be used (abused), there are serious lasting, often fatal consequences. To me, not to speak out about these things…that is hateful. The the American College of Pediatricians is right to inform/warn parents and youth.

    Someone above stated: " homosexuals – (are) people who present absolutely zero threat to you and your well-being" Not true. The gay lifestyle is a threat to the well being of children raised in gay homes. From Factsaboutyouth: 'No human culture anywhere, at any time, has ever raised a generation of children in same-sex homes. This is an experiment upon children to fulfill adult wishes to parent.

    The family changes over the last four decades — with its baggage of no-fault divorce, cohabitation, unwed childrearing and fatherlessness – have shown beyond doubt that these changes have been a wholesale negative for child well-being.'

    Children are already suffering in our dysfunctional society today. Why do we want to subject them to any more experiments? And what about many young teens who, being confused early on about their sexuality, unwittingly get drawn into the lifestyle before they are really mature enough decide the kind of life they want to pursue and understand what the risks of the gay lifestyle will be?

    And what happens to the rights of sincere Christians, those believing the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin, if they try to lovingly warn others out of concern for their souls?…What about pastors who simply preach that homosexuality is a sin from the pulpit? Will they be put in jail for 'hate' crimes? It is already happening in Canada. What is the effect on freedom of religion if gay marriage becomes the law of the land? So, see, what you do and your demand for society to change (to accept things as normal that have never been accepted since the beginning of time) DOES have an effect and IS a threat to others…to children, impressionable young people, and also to Bible believing Christians who will soon be singled out for standing up for their sincerely held beliefs. (Chic-Fil-A ring a bell?) No one should ever be bullied nor threatened with violence because of their sexual orientation…never! But for a person to simply state that he holds to the traditional definition of marriage…that is now being labeled hateful and some even want to make it a crime. Are freedom of speech and freedom of religion just for some… the politically correct…now? Sure seems that way.

    ."

    August 28, 2012 at 5:04 PM Reply
    • Doreen A Mannion #

      This group, the American College of Pediatricans, is not an objective medical group. It is a small group of self-admitted conservatives who split off from the true authority on pediatrics, the American Academy of Pediatricsm because they did not like it when studies concluded gays & lesbians are fit to adopt children.

      February 18, 2013 at 7:51 PM Reply
  24. Rose #

    Here it comes…first gay marriage…now marriage of trios. The first civil union of three people in the Brazil's history took place this week. Brazil legalized gay marriage in 2004. A civil union there can be converted into a marriage with the approval of a state judge…so technically Brazil will soon have legal polygamy. The Netherlands is very close to legalizing polygamy also. A trio was granted a civil union there in 2005. Belgium and the Netherlands were the first countries in the world to legalize gay marriage. Now they seem to be on the slippery slope. What will it be next…civil unions/marriage for groups of ten…man and dog? Where will this redefinition of marriage and family end? It ends with the devaluing and destruction of marriage. That is where it is headed.

    August 28, 2012 at 5:25 PM Reply
  25. A couple more comments have come in that are nasty toward other posters or that contain links to gay sites and sites that disparage Christian/Biblical doctrine and those who are trying to stand for God's Word as truth. Sorry, but as moderator I am not going to have this discussion veer that far off course.

    Look, let's turn this back to the original issue. Is the Bible true or not? Does Matthew Vines' video make sound scriptural sense, or doesn't it? Does the Bible list homosexuality among the many sins God wants us to avoid, or doesn't it?

    If we can stick to these questions without trashing others, I'll keep this conversation going. Otherwise I'm yanking it down faster than a Rick Warren tweet on breath prayers.

    August 29, 2012 at 5:11 AM Reply
  26. Daniel Klembara #

    There wasnt anything sexual in it. It was study nothing else, and all it was jst opinion that doent fit ito your mind, its censorship are you afraid of truth?

    tell me whch lines dsparade religion an i will put them out, my opinion is worth as yours

    August 29, 2012 at 5:26 AM Reply
  27. Daniel Klembara #

    trashing others was ok till it was calling gays sinfull…

    August 29, 2012 at 5:27 AM Reply
  28. Daniel Klembara #

    so here is my reaction stripped :

    1.Thats not separate study its catholic church propaganda. Informations there are provided in direction by George Alan Rekers- the same person who runs conversion therapies- what is not helping or curing people, but hurting them and making them commit suicde in many cases.
    2.About the health issues me and most of people knows that relationships and healthy sex between any adult persons doesnt cause any health issues. What you talk about is PROMISCUITY and DANGEROUS SEXUAL PRACTICES. Look how many people die cause of heterosex , how many hetero rapes occur, how many disgusting things happens in order to fullfill heterosexual libido. Should we abolish the heterosexuality too?
    3.Are there more promiscuity between homosexuals than hetero? YES. But ask why?? Gay community is putted into same dungeon with perves for centuries, out of the sights of others.
    4.Other thing when our relationships are alwas to be hidden is much easier to start doing perversiies- cause society labels you as sick anyway- the borders dissapear easier.
    5. Public aspect of marriages/ unions- critique of people, the responsiilities- all builds borders for promiscuity and make relationship stronger- tool we never had.

    Kids of my generation will wont understand what the buzz was all about, its gonna be accepted.
    -i will be married to my partner and together we will have kids and we will be healthy and happy as many others

    August 29, 2012 at 5:38 AM Reply
    • For Christians, the Bible says:

      1. Sex outside of marriage is sin.
      2. Jesus in His own words says that Marriage is between one man and one woman.

      To me, the bigger issue is the choice the Church needs to make on this issue, and whether to abandon Truth for modernity. The implications of this are HUGE. It isn't about Christians dictating morality to non-Christians, or telling others outside the Church that they need to make the choices we do. As it says in 1 Corinthians 5:12, it isn't my responsibility to judge outsiders, but it certainly is your responsibility to judge those inside the church who are sinning.

      Daniel, if you are a Christian, then we need to talk more about this. If not, then I ask that you at least understand rightfully and without bias what the big issue is really about for Christians.

      August 29, 2012 at 5:58 AM Reply
  29. Daniel Klembara #

    My partner is from differet country and we spent huge amount time and money in order to be together its almost impossile for him to recieve visa. If christian party in our parlament wouldnt boycote the law for same sex unions I could make it with him and we could be both much more productive fo my country, its just basic thing– you are usless if your partner is away….

    Its sad but even if I dont believe in god and much less in biblic god i must obey.
    It affects me greatly

    Please its hard to understand that? Its not marriage infront of god, its partnership union infront goverment. I totaly agree mariage should be for man and woman- thats the ritual- to sanctify higher purpose of reproduction.

    August 29, 2012 at 6:32 AM Reply
  30. Iris #

    Matthew Vines: 1
    Matt Moore: 0

    August 30, 2012 at 7:34 PM Reply
  31. lmb #

    Since you decided to censor my response to rose, I'll give the nutshell: The information rose referenced was published by a fringe group that is not recognized or respected by the greater medical community. The large majority of the misinformation contained in that site is in direct conflict with even the very studies they cite. The authors of the studies they've cited have been very vocal about the way their material was misrepresented. The actual American Academy of Pediatrics has criticized the harmful, politically-driven misinformation spread by the American College of Pediatricians. Just because they have a name that sounds legit does not, in fact, make them legit. Research is your friend.

    Lovely that you have no problem with people posting information that is flat-out false and quite damaging, but you censor a reply that explains that. I can only assume you prefer the spread of hate over truth.

    That said, the Bible says many things. The argument here isn't whether the Bible is true or false. The argument lies in how people like to pick and choose what they want to follow, and what they decide to ignore. Matthew Vines does a stand-up job of showing us there is no solid ground for homophobia to stand within Christianity. (And yes, it IS homophobia, when you tell people they are broken and wrong simply by being honest with themselves, and when you deny people basic human rights because you don't like thinking about what they do in their own bedrooms with other consenting adults.) But this article, many of its comments, and the moderator's actions have made it pretty clear that so many people who call themselves Christians are too hung up on their own hate and insecurity to ever accept that.

    Nothing Matthew Vines said conflicts with the teachings of Christ. But most of what is being said here is in direct conflict with those teachings.

    August 30, 2012 at 8:28 PM Reply
    • Ironically Imb, your post was censored because of the hateful tone you used with Rose.

      August 31, 2012 at 5:03 AM Reply
    • Rose Vosburgh #

      Respectfully to lmb: The information I posted was not 'flat out false' nor 'damaging'. The 'greater medical community' has been heavily influenced by the politically correct, 'gay' agenda in recent years. Liberal activitists within these organizations have gained positions of authority and they now control the decision making. These organizations have misrepresented science in order to affirm unhealthy lifestyles as normal behavior. The American College of Pediatricians has taken a bold stand in opposition in an effort to give parents and teens information they cannot otherwise have access to regarding the risks of the 'gay' lifestyle. The ACP is not a conservative or religious organization. These professionals are not opposed to the 'gay' lifestyle if adult men and women chose to engage in it. ACP is interested only in the welfare and protection of children and their families and that they receive full and unbiased information about the lifestyle.

      Yes, research is my friend. If anyone is interested in why the American Psychiatric Assoc. dropped the diagnosis of homosexuality in 1973, a good book to consult is: American Psychiatry and Homosexuality: The Politics of Diagnosis by Robert Bayer who is himself a supporter of the 'gay' agenda. Bayer documents how gay activists pressured the American Psychiatric Association to remove homosexuality from its Diagnostic and Statistical Manual. According to Bayer, the decision, from which 39% of the members voting dissented, was not the result of science, but politics:

      "A furious egalitarianism that challenged every instance of authority had
      compelled psychiatric experts to negotiate the pathological status of
      homosexuality with homosexuals themselves. The result was not a conclusion
      based on an approximation of scientific truth as dictated by reason, but was
      instead an action demanded by the ideological temper of the times."

      According to Bayer, “The status of homosexuality is a political question, representing a historically rooted, socially determined choice regarding the ends of human sexuality. It requires a political analysis.”

      I am sure, however, that no matter what information I provide, your mind is already made up on these issues. But, if there truly ARE health risks involved, the loving thing do is to warn….even if that makes me a 'hater' in the eyes of some.

      August 31, 2012 at 12:55 PM Reply
      • Doreen A Mannion #

        There is no such thing as a "gay agenda". This is a falsehood.

        February 18, 2013 at 7:53 PM Reply
  32. Daniel Klembara #

    This is about the civil/ christian law.
    Very sentimental video but still truth, dont forget about us and our real feelings when you deny us partnership unions, you might dissagree with homosexual activity but when its already happend how can someone brick you out of life of someone? Is this right?

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pR9gyloyOjM

    August 31, 2012 at 10:03 AM Reply
    • Rose Vosburgh #

      Daniel, I watched your video and my heart goes out to this very bereaved young man. The parents of the man who died were very wrong to treat him as they did…to shun him and threaten him was just despicable. They may call themselves Christian, but their actions say otherwise. The way they treated their own precious son and this young man is contrary to what Christ taught.

      My niece is gay. None of our family has turned her away nor would we ever. On the contrary, we love her and pray earnestly for her every day. She understands that we do not approve of her lifestyle and why, but she also is assured we love her and always will. True Christians DO love homosexuals. We love them, in fact. enough to tell them the truth even if it hurts..and even if we risk being called 'haters'. Telling someone they are living in sin is offensive…yes. But we sincerely believe that is what God teaches about homosexuality. We all sin in our own ways…there is no one righteous. Unless we admit and confess our sin, turn from it, and trust Christ, none of us will be saved. That sounds very offensive and even intolerant…but Jesus said His gospel would offend and not be tolerated… that the way of salvation is a narrow way because few will want to follow it. People want to make their own rules,live as they please, and so they make up a god in their minds who conforms to what they want him to be. Just because we feel something is right, doesn't make it so regardless of how sincere we are about it. The Bible says our hearts are wicked so we dare not trust in them,

      I think things would have gone much better for the young man in the video had he and his partner made some provisions…like making up a will, getting power of attorney for each other, putting bank accounts in both names, perhaps other measures could also have been taken to ensure the nature of the relationship was honored. Even husbands and wives have to do that for each other as well. Not being able to marry is not the reason this man's parents were able to do the harm that they did. The men had access to rights but did not take advantage of them. It is not fair to blame everything that happened on their not being able to marry. My adult daughter has a mental disability, I got a call that she was admitted to ICU. When I called the hospital, the nurses refused to give me informaton as to why she was admitted until I could prove I had a POA. She had tried to commit suicide and I am her Mom! The privacy laws today are pretty strict for everyone and so we need to get documents in place to comply with the system. My heart goes out to this young man, the tragic circumstances, and the way he was treated. But I doubt marriage would have granted them any more rights than they already had, but did not utilize.

      Thank you, Daniel, for posting the video and for your participation in this discussion. I will keep this young man in my prayers.

      August 31, 2012 at 4:30 PM Reply
    • Rose Vosburgh #

      Daniel, I watched your video. Would you watch one of mine? I posted this on another page here, but you may not have seen it. The young man in this video had a very different experience in the way his Christian mother and father related to him when he revealed to them that he was gay.. Please watch with an open heart and mind as this young man shares his story of how his life was forever changed because of the love and sacrifice of a praying mom.

      http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2012/03/amazing-te

      September 1, 2012 at 4:20 AM Reply
  33. Daniel Klembara #

    After you watch it, please tell me Amy: Is this what would Jesus decided to do? Sexuality is one thing, but the feelings are clean and deserve respect. Do you think the same?

    August 31, 2012 at 10:05 AM Reply
  34. lmb #

    Because my original response to rose was censored (even though I'm not the one who compared a relationship two consenting adults in love with bestiality), I'll repost without the "hateful" parts, edited somewhat. Note: There are no links to anything here, only information on how to locate my sources.

    The American College of Pediatricians is not to be confused with the American Academy of Pediatrics (1), though I suspect they chose a name with such similarity quite intentionally. The latter is actually a respected medical organization, which adheres to rigorous standards with regard to their research and publications, including such processes as peer-review of scholarly articles, avoiding political and social bias, and drawing conclusions from observations obtained by employing the scientific method. The former is a fringe group that receives little respect or approval from the greater medical community, and has prompted many critical responses from the community.

    “The American College of Pediatricians (ACPeds) is a socially conservative association of pediatricians and other healthcare professionals specializing in the care of infants, children and adolescents in the United States. The College was founded in 2002 by a group of pediatricians including Joseph Zanga, a past president of the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP), as a protest against the AAP’s support for adoption by gay couples.”
    So, already, we’ve established that this was an organization formed for *political* purposes, *not* scientific or medical purposes.
    (2)

    Then there are the sources of their “facts” to examine, which you can find at the bottoms of each of the pages you quote.
    The site is repeatedly in direct conflict with nearly all modern, peer-reviewed publications on the issues, yet they do a pretty good job of making it look like they have plenty sources to back up their claims. The problem here is that their references and “resources” are comprised largely of publications from the 80′s and 90′s – nearly all of them are over a decade old – and numerous publications that aren’t scientific in nature. Severely dated information, some non-medical publications, and a handful of slightly later books and articles, many from questionable or known biased sources.

    Their oft-cited sources include:
    – George Rekers (3)
    – Dr. Francis Collins, who said they “distorted his scientific observations” (4)
    – This man, who says he’s angry that the ACoP misrepresented his reports to push “a cause that most ethical Pediatricians will recognize as misguided and hurtful to an entire class of children and families.” – (5)
    More from that guy: “What was so troubling was that these were fellow doctors, fellow pediatricians,” Remafedi says. “They knew better, and they have the same ethical responsibilities to their patients that I do, but they deliberately distorted my research for malicious purposes.”
    (6)

    And I still stand by my statement that homosexuals pose no threat. Several reviews and studies have shown that children raised by same-sex parents are doing as well or better than children raised in “traditional” households. In fact, any negative effects suffered by the children in relation to their parents being of the same sex is directly resulting from their parents’ relationship not being legally or socially recognized as legitimate – i.e. not being allowed to marry, homophoic bullying, being told their parents are the same as pedophiles and theives and are going to hell, etc. The act of teaching your children that some people are better than others will do far more harm than any homosexual you're likely to encounter. And as for the statement about same-sex couples never raising children before now, well, I recommend you pick up a few books and actually read them. That claim is downright false, and if you were remotely familiar with human history and anthropology, you would recognize the absurdity of it. Throughout human history, children have been raised in all sorts of environments. The concept of a nuclear family being the ideal environment for children is extremely new. And homosexuality has been around for as long as we have record of humanity. It's simply been accepted or ignored for the most part. Though, if you believe the world is only about 2000 years old, despite the plethora of evidence and unlikelihood that prove otherwise, then this argument probably won't have any impact on your opinions, and you'll probably determine that nearly every anthropology book you pick up is the work of Satan.

    Also, this lifestyle you speak of. What is it? Because I know not of it. I get up in the morning, go to work, pay my bills, call my mom from time to time, spend time with my friends, and do my best to be a good partner. How is that any different from any other lifestyle? I’m guessing you have these images in your head of spiky-haired, shirtless twinks and tattooed uberdykes on Harleys, shooting dope and grabbing quickies in public restrooms at truck stops, just to get by until they can swipe another 6-year-old, since the last one managed to escape the basement. Sorry, but I’ve only known heterosexual people who behaved in such ways, so I’m a little confused about your point. And congrats on the whole direct gay-to-dog bit. Because, yeah, that’s so original.

    When people will believe anything that reinforces their own views, then ignore actual, y’know, evidence, as presented by deliberate observation or reliable sources, which challenges those views, then there’s really no hope for any intelligent conversation. Have fun in that world you’re living in, where everyone’s out to gay rape your children and force you to convert to Islam and start speaking Mandarin. I am so glad I am not you.

    *It won’t let me post links, so I’ll post search terms instead. You should be able to copy and paste each of these phrases into google, and get the intended article as the first result.

    1. wikipedia “American Academy of Pediatrics”
    2. wikipedia “American College of Pediatricians”
    3. miaminewtimes george rekers takes vacation
    4. nih directory admonishes american college of pediatricians
    5. researcher reprimands Spediatric group for distorting research
    6. citypages university of minnesota professor s research hijacked

    Five bucks says this doesn't last 2 hours before being taken down.

    August 31, 2012 at 1:26 PM Reply
    • Rose Vosburgh #

      Respectfully, lmb…You put words into my mouth I never said. I did not compare a 'relationship between two consenting adults in love' to bestiality. What I was trying to show is that, if you redefine marriage from being the union of one man and one woman to a union of two men or two women…then you have opened the flood gates for other groups of people who want their own definition of marriage to be the accepted norm. That is what is happening right now with polygomy becoming legal in the nations that were the first to sanction gay marriage. I was just making the point that once you change the definition of marriage from what it has been since the beginning of time, it is conceivable that someone could even advocate for a marriage union of man or woman with their pet. Eventually marriage becomes meaningless and just a joke. The destruction of the institution of marriage is at stake when we begin to redefine what it is.

      I am sure your post will not be taken down this time. It is ok to disagree. We just need to do it in a way that is civil with respect for one another. I may not agree with you in anything you say at all, but I care about you as a person and that is why I have taken the time to engage in this conversation. I may not be able to convince you of anything, but at least we are having an open dialogue and hopefully, you will be able to see that I and other Christians are not the monsters you perceive us to be. We can disagree amiably… with respect and with common courtesy. When the name calling starts, minds and hearts close down and real communication goes out the window. I have engaged in many conversations with gay people on line and, for the most part, what I have experienced is vicious hate filled attacks on my person and character for no reason than that I disagreed with them, even though I always try very hard to do so in a respectful manner. You confuse difference of opinion with hate. If I hated gay people, I would not engage them in conversation at all.

      September 1, 2012 at 4:08 AM Reply
      • lmb #

        "What will it be next…civil unions/marriage for groups of ten…man and dog?"

        Yes, rose, you compared same-sex unions with a union between man and dog. You've completely ignored the fact that a dog is incapable of giving its consent, taking vows, and signing a contract. Polygamy is an entirely different situation, and an entirely different conversation. But you did, in fact, compare same-sex unions between two consenting adults to a guy marrying a dog. That is not only offensive and degrading to the people you claim to love, but it also completely ignores all the things I mentioned above. All this simply in an effort to make a point. What you have said there is dehumanizing, condescending, and hurtful. There is no love in such a statement.

        Honestly, if you want to get into technicalities with marriage, I agree that the church should not be required, under any circumstances, to acknowledge any marriage it doesn't want to. But this isn't about the church, because the church doesn't make our laws. This is about legality, and the ability for two people in a committed relationship to take the same steps as any heterosexual couple which would ensure their rights as a couple and as a family.

        You actually made a very good point in response to Daniel's video. Something I even found myself thinking while watching it. Yes, those two men could have taken steps to help prevent the kind of heartache that the living partner experienced. The things he dealt with happen to heterosexual couples, too.

        Where the church comes into play is here: By fixating on something that has so little ground for condemnation already, an environment has been created for a significant portion of our population that is neither psychologically nor physically safe. It is this sentiment of shame and brokenness that pushes people to suicide and destructive behavior. It is this sentiment of condemnation that leads people to behave in ways like that man's parents behaved toward his partner. It is this sentiment that leads young men and women who are gay to abandon their spiritual communities and move instead to the only places they think they can be accepted and loved. And when you have a bunch of young men and women who feel abandoned and hated by their family, their church, and their community, all in one place, with no guidance, then you'll often find a bunch of extremely unhealthy behavior in the midst of it. Not always, mind you, but often.

        And I'm right there with you in regards to guiding people against unhealthy and dangerous behavior – drugs, thoughtless promiscuity, and generally not taking care of oneself. These are things that we should be preventing, things that can lead to pain and sickness, both physical and psychological. Loving, committed relationships between two people who do their best to support and stand up for each other, working together to achieve common goals and a healthy family for their children – these are not the things to be combated. It's been a while since I've been to church myself, but I do remember being taught that love is the heart of the message of Christ.

        I don't doubt that you mean well. I don't doubt that you value your faith and do your best to follow it as well as you know how. What I doubt is your ability or willingness to make very, very sure that you do, in fact, know how.
        The arguments presented by Matthew Vines are not new. Many sections of the church have already revisited these points and come to the conclusion that they might have been wrong before. They were humble enough to lay down their pride, their need to always be right, to re-examine the teachings they follow, and to listen to their hearts. And while you say that "The Bible says our hearts are wicked so we dare not trust in them," (Jeremiah 17:9?), does the bible not also tell us that the Holy Spirit speaks to us through our hearts? "I will praise the Lord who counsels me; even at night my heart instructs me," (Psalm 16:7) is one verse that comes to mind. I'm sure you could find more.

        Remember our history, and how often people have done terrible things because they thought they were right. Because they thought they understood the words of the bible. We have grown as humans to understand things differently now. We have grown to understand that slavery is wrong. That treating women like property is wrong. That genocide is wrong. That racism is wrong. These are all terrible acts that have been committed by otherwise good people who thought they were doing the right thing. We learn. We grow. And we do that without compromising our values or faith, because our values and faith demand that we understand and love. We are expected to do this as individuals; does this not apply to humanity as a whole?

        All that said, I would like to apologize for my harsh tone before. Please understand that many of the things that have been said in this thread are threatening to the lives and well-being of many good people, for reasons that I touched on before. It's difficult to keep a cool head and maintain compassion in such an atmosphere. Please continue to understand that, when you speak with others that may come off as hostile toward your position. If you do truly love the people about whom you speak, then it behooves you to understand how your words impact them and their lives, particularly if the people to whom you speak love you.

        September 1, 2012 at 9:10 PM Reply
        • lmb #

          I'd also like to add that the definition of marriage has already changed from what it used to be. It used to be a contract of ownership, of the wife, he bloodline, and the property owned by her father. I think we can agree that it is no longer that.
          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marriage#History_of_

          September 1, 2012 at 9:17 PM Reply
        • Rose Vosburgh #

          The man/dog thing was sarcasm in an effort to show how marriage can be devalued to be meaningless. But, believe me, if I had understood it would upset you so, lmb, I would have left it out.

          Thank you for your apology for the tone. I do appreciate that. I have tried to communicate respectfully that Christians bear no ill will toward gays. We simply want to share the good news of Jesus Christ with as many people as we can and cherish the freedom we have always had to do so. As I told Daniel, I have family who are gay. I love them dearly. I try in the most loving way I can to warn them of what God’s Word says for the very reason that I do love them and fear for them…not only for their health and welfare in this life, but also for their eternal wellbeing.

          For me, there are individual gay people I know and get along well with on a personal level…and then there is the gay political agenda that seeks to force its way on society as a whole, changing everything…the institution of marriage, the way our children are educated, hiring practices, the way business is conducted, laws that are passed, even freedom to practice and share my religion. Gays are already free to live the gay lifestyle if they chose it. Sodomy laws have been repealed and there is much more acceptance of the gay lifestyle in society than even just a few years ago. So marriage is the new battle ground now. Christians simply want to preserve the sanctity of marriage as it has always been…one man and one woman. Gays marriage does not mean a new kind of equality will be achieved for gays. They already have freedom, equality, and legal means to protect themselves. Please understand…when you cross the line on marriage, it becomes a real threat to Christians because eventually (as is happening in Canada) we will be penalized for standing up for our sincerely held religious beliefs. You feel Christians are a threat to you, but it is actually the other way around. Who will be charged with hate crimes, fined, or possibly even go to jail once gay marriage is the law of the land? Freedom of religion is truly at risk now. The primary tactic of the gay agenda today to make Christians feel guilty and wear them down… like we are terrible, intolerant, hateful people… the equivalent to the KKK. Yes, there the Westboro Baptist heretics, but they are a very small minority and do not represent me nor Christians as a whole who take the Bible literally.

          The gay agenda aims its charges of bigotry squarely and solely at Christians. But if Sharia Law is ever enacted in America, you will soon find out what real intolerance looks like. In Arab countries, homosexuals are stoned, beaten, and thrown from tall buildings. Do you think only the extremists Muslims are intolerant of gays? From wikiislam: “A Gallup survey carried out in early 2009 found that British Muslims have zero tolerance for Homosexuality. Not even a single British Muslim interviewed believed that homosexual acts were morally acceptable. Also according to a Zogby International poll of American Muslims taken in November and December of 2001, a massive 71 percent opposed "allowing gays and lesbians to marry legally.” And this: “The ongoing persecution of homosexuals by Muslims around the world, rarely makes the mainstream news. The fear of offending Islamic sensibilities and enraging the Muslim populous has effectively silenced the free world in many areas. Thanks to the Internet, those of us who search can find many news items that would otherwise be lost.” I suggest you do a google search on the treatment of gays by Muslims and then ask yourself…Are the Bible believing Christian really such a terrible threat to your well being?

          Though I understand this is going to offend you, I sincerely believe the Bible teaches homosexuality is a sin (like many others) for which Christ died, from which he can deliver a person…not make them heterosexual necessarily… but give him/her the grace to live a life of holiness that is acceptable to His standards. I also believe that those who reject Christ's clear message of repentance will end up one day in a terrible place of everlasting suffering called hell. Now that sounds very judgmental, hateful and even prideful to you. But, if I really believe those things with all my heart, and then do not care enough about people to share that and to warn them, I am nothing more than a hypocrite. As I said before, I will risk being called a hater to tell you the truth as I believe it is revealed in the Bible…even when it becomes illegal for me to do so.

          A side note to your last comment: Even if some customs concerning the marriage contract have changed over the years from one society to another, the main definition of it being between one man and one woman has never changed since the beginning of time.

          You made other points I could address, but this getting us nowhere. You mind is made up already and I feel like I am beginning to talk in circles after so many posts. It’s time for me to move on. Again, I do appreciate so much the change in tone and your willingness to engage in this conversation with me. You will think this is condescending, but please believe me… I don’t mean it to be…. I will be praying for you.

          September 3, 2012 at 3:30 PM Reply
  35. Daniel Klembara #

    to Imb:

    Thanks for your effort:)

    Now site FACTS ABOUT YOUTH is totally miscredited.
    Ofcourse they are just standing for what they think is right, but if its so right why they must make up evidence?

    We dont mind conservative christians thinking what they think, but for better futture of humanity any debate must be based on facts not on beliefs- world need to be protected by reason ,research and evidences- this is how world works now and should work.

    And conservatives knows that thats why they constantly fabricate the research. So if you all have nothing but your interpretation of Bible- stop putting your nose where serious debate and making up the society is going on.

    Like Imb, I also have far more important problems than seducing young boys, this is desilusion, maybe last hunting of witches- the tactics are same- make up evidence and force people to admit they are sinful..

    September 1, 2012 at 1:44 AM Reply
  36. Daniel Klembara #

    Where to start….

    I guess to touch all of the points in debate make no help, we should move one by one.

    To Rose: I watched the video, it has two conotations (implications) which you I guess pointing at:

    1. God makes miracles
    2. Homosexuality is sinful often go with drugs and promiscuity

    so to respond you.

    1. God doesnt make miracles, cause god doesnt exist. Thats my opinon. Are there any proofs of miracles? Billions of people are praying everyday, for numerous reasons and recieve no response. People say : Its gods wish, its strugle we must show him we can keep on. Ofcourse from Billions of people statistically must someone get better- christians scream: THATS PROOOFF. Well its just your belief have nothing with prooving or evidence, so this conotation is usless and just take us to the debate about gods existence.

    2.Cause that boy was homosexual and also promisucit, and drug dealer it must be connected. Do you believe it? How its connected? Please explain me? Explain me how these factors come together? I know around hundred gays, they are by the way all decent , sensitive people more polite and clean to others than lots of heterosexuals i know. Its obvious you still consider homosexuality as starting point for perversity and crime. Am I right?

    September 2, 2012 at 6:25 AM Reply
    • Rose Vosburgh #

      Thank you, Daniel, for viewing the video. I am sorry if you cannot see (or refuse to see) all the miracles that took place in this young man's life…cured of drug addiction, received a much shorter prison time for the serious offense of dealing drugs, free of AIDS when he tested positive, no longer living as a homosexual, but seeking to live a holy life pleasing to God, and all of his mother's prayers answered faithfully by God. Wow! A complete change of direction…. joy and a life of purpose instead of sorrow and grief. God does exist and He still works miracles in lives everyday..

      It was just this individual man's story and not meant to be a statement of what all gay people are like. But it IS a statement of what God can do for anyone …no matter how far down they may go … who is willing to open their heart to him.

      September 3, 2012 at 4:01 PM Reply
    • lyn #

      Daniel,

      I want to comment on the connection between homosexuality, drugs and promiscuity. I lived a lesbian lifestyle, by my own choice, for a number of years. My relationship, as well as every other lesbian couple I encountered, was filled with drunkenness, drugs, promiscuity, jealousy, violence. Why? Because these types of relationships are based on lust, which is a selfish desire.

      I wanted NOTHING to do with God, even though I was miserable. But God {who does exist btw, regardless of your denial} was merciful. He drew me to Himself and performed the greatest miracle one could ever witness; He took a dead in sin, rebellious, Christ-rejecting God hating sinner and re-birthed me. He opened my spiritual eyes and ears to see and understand my wickedness, He enabled me to see how hopeless my life beyond this world was. Upon death, I was sure to face wrath because I broke His laws. But He desires to show mercy, and He did just that.

      I once was where you are now…in denial. Please read what this great and merciful God has done for me … http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2008/11/my-testimo

      September 13, 2012 at 2:29 AM Reply
  37. Daniel Klembara #

    to Iyn:

    Again typical antipropaganda…. I asked for connection arguments between homosexuality and gangster life style. WHAT IS CONNECTION. I didnt wanted to hear you were bad person, Iam sorry for it and glad you are not anymore, but because you took drugs and lived promiscuit homosexual life it doesnt mean homosexuality ultimately leads to these sins.

    Because its doesnt. I know hundred gays all decent people, and also my case. I never was drug abuser nor alcoholic, never had problem with law, i was drunken once in my life when my heterosexual friends pushed me into.

    If you let yourself slip into pofiderious circles that is altogether another story.

    Tell me:
    1. You really think at least 70 percent of homosexual people live lifestyle full of drugs and alcohol?
    2.What is the connection. Stating i was homosexual and promiscuite and drunken drugged… no….what is real connection how homosexuality makes people to take drugs.

    Most of normal homosexual people, middle class, visiting school having job, havng loving parents, friends, most of them are normal just like most of heterosexuals. I say it from my own experience interacting with such a people for long years. And living with my partner who forbids me to eat candy cause i have problematic teeths.

    What I see is that people polarize homosexuality, drugs, alcohol, violence, promiscuity and 10 condemms on the other side. But that pays in criminal low moral world, which i and most of people and thus most of homosexual people not part of.
    And just let be honest in such a sphere also heterosexuals makes lot of dirty things…it makes heterosexuality a sin?

    Use reason please. Okay for you homosexuality means dirty sin, you used is in a sinful way, but do not count me by: i was where you are,- in the same categhory.
    Iam decent person, dont insult me to compare with old you. Is this really what religion and christianity makes of people? Rude to others? Unable to see the difference between criminal and normal persons?

    September 17, 2012 at 4:01 PM Reply
    • lyn #

      Daniel,
      Homosexuality is a sin, forbidden by God. Sin breeds more sin; every homosexual I knew 'cheated' on their partner. Every homosexual I knew drank excessively or used illegal drugs. I am not saying homosexuality is the cause of all sin, the depraved human heart and our nature is the cause of all sin. May we never try to lessen the severity of any sin, especially the sin of homosexuality.

      As for homosexuals being 'decent people', this is your human reasoning. Let us look at what the God of heaven says about EVERY ONE of us…"Psa 53:2-3, "God looks down from heaven on the children of man to see if there are any who understand, who seek after God. They have all fallen away; together they have become corrupt; there is none who does good, not even one."
      Romans 3:23, " for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God."

      You claim to be a decent person, but you have sinned against a holy God, the God who created everyone and everything. You value yourself according to your own standards, here is what you need to know about the human mind, "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?" Jeremiah 17:9
      The word 'heart' comes from the Hebrew 'lêb' and is defined as 'inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory, as seat of emotions and passions, inclination, resolution, determination (of will), heart (of moral character)'. Your ability to reason, discern, and judge is corrupt and is based on flawed thinking. 'Deceitful' reflects that, it is defined as 'crooked, deceitful, polluted, fraudulent'. The human mind is polluted by sin and cannot make accurate decisions when it comes to spiritual matters. The Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin, regardless of how good we think ourselves to be. We are all wicked sinners who have broken God's perfect and holy law.
      Jeremiah 17:9 goes on to say 'desperately sick', which means ' incurable, sick, woeful'. The mind is diseased with sin, unable to cure itself because of this. That is why whatever assessment you have of yourself is flawed.

      You state homosexuals are 'normal', God calls you out on this in Romans 1:27, "and the men likewise gave up natural relations with women and were consumed with passion for one another, men committing shameless acts with men and receiving in themselves the due penalty for their error." 'Natural' means 'produced by nature, inborn'. You were conceived with the 'natural' way of sexual relations ordained by God, between and man and a woman. It is when you suppress this truth that births the sin of homosexuality. You gave up the 'natural way' to pursue after what is forbidden, lustful, and sinful. You also claim your relationship is based on love…not so. This verse states men were 'consumed with passion', meaning 'desiring, longing, craving for what is forbidden, lust'. To lust is not the same as love, love is a gift God gives to a man and his wife; when He ordained the covenant of marriage, He stated, "Therefore a man shall leave his father and his mother and hold fast to his wife, and they shall become one flesh." Every homosexual relationship is based on a forbidden lust, because it goes outside the word of God and is clearly called sin by God. Any relationship outside the ordained covenant of marriage between a man and a woman is not recognized by God and is sin; based on lustful depraved thinking and motives.

      I recommend this article concerning homosexual 'love'.. .http://iamhis-lyn.blogspot.com/2011/04/are-homosexual-relationships-based-on.html

      September 21, 2012 at 12:28 PM Reply
  38. Daniel Klembara #

    Sorry I missread: Because these types of relationships are based on lust, which is a selfish desire.

    Your homosexual relationships maybe. But not mine, and not of milions of homosexual relationships, you know nothing about it.
    Your past is perve not mine present.

    September 17, 2012 at 6:53 PM Reply
  39. Daniel Klembara #

    Every homosexual I knew drank excessively or used illegal drugs

    I dont. How you are going to explain it? And so many people i know.
    I am sorry to say but its your paranoid desilusion. You hang out in criminal sphere. You even made a page to spread this desilusion, you hurt milions of decents gays.

    About bible, you say i judge myself by my own merits. Let me tel you I judge myself by humanistic modern merits that are far infront of biblic sadistic narrow minded moralities.

    But whatever you write about gays however you want to portrait them, all lies will go in vain. Gay rights are walking forward very succesfully there is a reason for that.

    September 22, 2012 at 7:21 AM Reply
    • lyn #

      Do you understand your sexual sin is an abomination against a Holy God? Did you read my last response in its entirety?

      You are sinning against God, "Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals, nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God." 1 Corinthians 6:9-10 Your only hope is in Christ, what He has done when He was crucified; as God the Father poured out His wrath on His own Son for those who believe. He rose from the dead and sits at the right hand of the Father, and He is coming again in judgment. I urge you to cry out to God for mercy, you have NO CLUE what it means to fall into the hands of the living God.

      September 22, 2012 at 9:03 AM Reply
  40. lyn #

    Gay rights? Since when does sexual immorality have a right to demand to be accepted?
    Should we embrace all sexual immorality and the demand for acceptance? Is it okay for the child molester, who chooses his sin just as you do, to demand society accept his sexual choice? How about bestiality, shall we now open the door wide for whatever sinful mankind wants to have sex with and claim it is a 'right' to do so? Where do we draw the line? Where are guidelines found for what is 'acceptable' and what isn't? Is it okay for an adult to have sexual intercourse with a 2 year old child? Why or why not?

    Sexual sin of any kind is not a 'right' that should demand society accept it. What you do in your bedroom is your business, and should be kept there. Do not shove down the throats of society your perversion and demand acceptance of it, for in so doing, you open doors for all kinds of sexual sin to demand acceptance. What you cannot see is that your sexual choice is sin…and you will indeed stand before the God who sits exalted high above His creation and you will face judgment, an eternity in utter torment and agony compared to a brief moment on this earth fulfilling your sinful pleasures…which is why I urge you to cry out to Him for mercy. You may scoff, but know this – a day is rapidly approaching when you will be "calling to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?"- Revelation 6:15-16

    September 22, 2012 at 1:29 PM Reply
  41. Daniel Klembara #

    Iam not christian, for many reasons.

    Your posts just shown how christianity can infect mind, it made you rotor unable of own thinking.

    If there is a god he must be very sorry for you

    September 22, 2012 at 7:29 PM Reply
    • lyn #

      I already knew you aren't a Christian, it isn't like it's something we choose. Your defense of your sin proves such.
      The mind is depraved, if left unregenerated by God, it will always run to sin and defend it. The mind that is renewed by God sees its hopeless state and cries out for mercy. You recoil at God's truth because you are in bondage to your sin, and it will destroy you, unless God is gracious to you. "A fool says in his heart, 'there is no God' – psalm 14:1. God sees you as a fool, which translates 'moron'. He is not swayed one bit by your disbelief in Him; however, He desires to show mercy to those who see their sins and are repulsed by them. How do we know what sin is? By looking into His word; He created all things and has a right to state what is sinful. Your sexual perversion is not only sinful, it is an abomination to Him. He destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah as an example of what will happen to the ungodly – Jud 1:7 ' just as Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding cities, which likewise indulged in sexual immorality and pursued unnatural desire, serve as an example by undergoing a punishment of eternal fire.' You have no hope past this life, and this life is brief. You do not know if you will wake up tomorrow, every breath you breathe comes from Him due to His compassion and mercy. You live to gratify your sinful desires, and if you continue on in your sins, this life will have been your reward. When you die, you will step into outer darkness, the blackest black, where you will spend your time searching for a 'way out'; this is a place of confusion, where screams and cries are endless. Here you will stay until the final judgment, at which time you will be cast, better translated as hurled, into the lake of fire. There you will find Satan and his demons, as well as every Christ-rejecting sinner who lived as you are, running hard after sin and loving it. Is God unjust in punishing sinners? Absolutely not! You deliberately sin against Him and suppress the truth, you deny He exists so you can ease your own conscience and continue on in your sins. You can be sure of this, your sins will find you out.

      The sorrow you claim to have for me is nothing compared to what I sincerely have for you. I have been where you are, doubting God's existence and chasing after my sins. It eased my conscience and quieted that nagging truth that we all have a sense of from birth. When you reject the living God, He returns the favor by letting you go head-long into your sin until that sin consumes and destroys you, both physically and spiritually. Your conscience becomes 'seared', it no longer functions as it was designed to do. That is why you defend your sexual immorality with false claims like 'rights'. I wonder why you didn't respond to my question about others who choose different forms of sexual immorality, like those who molest children, or choose to have sex with animals. Is all this their 'right' to do so?

      September 23, 2012 at 8:07 AM Reply
  42. Daniel Klembara #

    Iam sorry I must react again.
    I see this happen too many times.
    Firsttly I want to apologize- this forum should be place for disccus the bible text in order to clear out the real message, and my presence as not believer is not neccessary BUT-
    Since i read out this forum and found people building up grotesque opinions on homosexuals, and secondly making scientific attempts to put homosexuality into the same bag as zoophylia, my duty is protect the truth, not as a believer but human.
    I dont want to insult anyone but its certain kind of tradition for certain types of believers to be able use empty arguments, to be able to bend debate into circulating system or to change target of debate anytime we are close to prooving truth. Circulation is one of the basic mind exercises in religion itself: Bible is truth cause its stated in bible etc… and the same patern they use also on the ground of scientific debate.
    Now all arguments of person like Lyn are already counting on that homosexuality is sin:
    -Gay rights? Since when does sexual immorality have a right to demand to be accepted?
    Should we embrace all sexual immorality and the demand for acceptance?-
    See? Since when does sexual immorality have right to demand to be accepted. Its seems legit, cause yes ofcourse, sexual immorality is not to be accepted by society. But it doesnt inherit any potent information WHY is homosexuality immoral. Thats the question. The answer for many is clear- bible…i will return to that..
    -Should we embrace all sexual immorality and the demand for acceptance? Is it okay for the child molester, who chooses his sin just as you do, to demand society accept his sexual choice? How about bestiality, shall we now open the door wide for whatever sinful mankind wants to have sex with and claim it is a ‘right’ to do so? Where do we draw the line? Where are guidelines found for what is ‘acceptable’ and what isn’t? Is it okay for an adult to have sexual intercourse with a 2 year old child? Why or why not?-
    Here Lyn as many people again deals out obvious case- we can not live without borders, and picture apocalyptic vision: if we open doors to one sinfull behaviour others can follow-(here we go again… no potent informatio only her prejudice that homosexuality is sin.)
    Now my question is WHY you think people are not able to draw the line themselfs? Thats the religious paranoia, it desillusional. We are the ones who makes the culture, we are the ones who explore and judge, we are able to understand much more than gods people held so dear. Does anyone seriously think that if the gay marriages, unions are allowed the legalisation of child molestery and zoophyla activity will follow. Answer please. You really think that way? You really think that people in goverment and scientist who study humans mind and been able to understand what is good for people and what hurts to them (or animals) and see huge difference between homosexuality and zoophylia would allow such a laws?
    You are sorry that i dont believe that 2000 years old book knows everything about the morality, but iam sorry you dont see how much we can do, how the morality developed from ancient iron age era. We not consider woman something less, we take animals as different forms of same thing..etc. All these things are beautiful and very recent modern moralities- sorry but it makes me trust people themselfs, I really feel i can trust the modern humanism- it contains progress, ideal of admiting mistakes and learning from them.
    So dont worry- We are abe to draw the line. We are doing it very succesfuly, much more succesful than bible which brought undescrible suffering to milions of people ( contains wisdoms like supporting of slavery, death penalty for pathetic reasons, supports animal slavery to human kind etc..), because its totalitian way of thinking. Its very obvious to which one we can put the trust.
    -Sexual sin of any kind is not a ‘right’ that should demand society accept it. What you do in your bedroom is your business, and should be kept there. Do not shove down the throats of society your perversion and demand acceptance of it, for in so doing, you open doors for all kinds of sexual sin to demand acceptance-
    So lets be honest- not everyone on the earth believe in god, and goverments consider crucial to have a choice of believe not duty.I consider it curicial like most of people in developed countries. Since religion is matter of personal belief choice it should not affect the law making. I know you are outraged cause in your favourite book its written : gay is sin. But we are now lucky enaugh live in society when everyone can have own favourite book or even books and hold own beliefs or ideas. So how do we make the rules and laws? We use prebaked helpof ancient book? No the majority was wise enaugh to realize that we must build it upon reason, evidences, discussions are research. That is what is happening. If we want to make our world better we can not rely on belief. Lets look on the other cases, christianity is not only one religion what about islam? Pretty cruel. And they also believe that their book is perfect and total truth., just like you. If you think of this we all can agree that some people belief in falsehoods. So the belief is not answer- only thing that protects us from living in lie is evidence.
    Iam proud on many people that they think also. So if you say for example: . Do not shove down the throats of society your perversion and demand acceptance of it, for in so doing, you open doors for all kinds of sexual sin to demand acceptance- you just make a political- sociological argument based on personal belief in bible, but bible is not proper evidence in any scientific disccussion.
    Now let me explain the big selfishness that lies in your claims: Do not shove down the throats of society your perversion and demand acceptance of it, for in so doing-
    you know its pervesion acording to bible,- you yourself demand to act everyone ( meaning not able to make gay partnership union for example or hiding romantical affection away ) by your own personal belief. You want to make milions of people unhappy by putting on them your belief system not research- what could be more egoistic than that. For me its perverse to bring such a hting as religion into serious discussion in parlament. Much more perverse than fullfiling relationship with my partner.
    If you cant make any scientific or logic argument, please restrain from making judgements about gay unions- Bible itself is not enaugh
    -What you cannot see is that your sexual choice is sin…and you will indeed stand before the God who sits exalted high above His creation and you will face judgment, an eternity in utter torment and agony compared to a brief moment on this earth fulfilling your sinful pleasures…which is why I urge you to cry out to Him for mercy. You may scoff, but know this – a day is rapidly approaching when you will be “calling to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of him who is seated on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb, for the great day of their wrath has come, and who can stand?”- Revelation 6:15-16-
    Its 2012 and i suddenly felt like in iron age, having supersticios threat putted on my head. Its monumental, sentimental using deadly apocaliptic pathos and mainly fear. And now in same blow you would be able to star persuading me that bible its beauty and peace itself. Thank you for trying to scare me . If i would write the same but changed the god for aliens, i would look like shizophrenic, but strangly for religious matters its considered beautiful.
    Please dont put these threats on me, it dont make the effect luckiy iam free from brainwashing- my apology to all decent christians…

    September 23, 2012 at 8:11 AM Reply
  43. Daniel Klembara #

    You have no hope past this life, and this life is brief. You do not know if you will wake up tomorrow, every breath you breathe comes from Him due to His compassion and mercy. You live to gratify your sinful desires, and if you continue on in your sins, this life will have been your reward. When you die, you will step into outer darkness, the blackest black, where you will spend your time searching for a ‘way out’; this is a place of confusion, where screams and cries are endless. Here you will stay until the final judgment, at which time you will be cast, better translated as hurled, into the lake of fire. There you will find Satan and his demons, as well as every Christ-rejecting sinner who lived as you are, running hard after sin and loving it. Is God unjust in punishing sinners? Absolutely not! You deliberately sin against Him and suppress the truth, you deny He exists so you can ease your own conscience and continue on in your sins. You can be sure of this, your sins will find you out.

    —- Iam sorry but every reasonable person must shake head, is your mind really just full of reapeating patterns. Its obssesion, perpetulum. Its so close to schizophrenia…..
    You live in the world under the big threat and big punishment, if its so great, why i can myself find more beautiful idea?

    September 23, 2012 at 8:15 AM Reply
  44. lyn #

    I will not enter into an argument with you based on your opinions of what you say is acceptable or what sin is; I have presented you with God's truth and only He can make that a reality to you. You suppress biblical truth in favor of sexual sinful pleasure, and that's understandable. Sin has you in bondage and it is only natural for you to defend your sin. However, your demand that those who see your sin for what it is accept it as a 'right' is insane; this opens the door for exactly what I questioned you about: pedophilia and bestiality. You can mock, insult, and consider true followers of Christ insane, I care little what you think of me. I am not here to win your support, I am here to speak of what Christ has done on the cross and what sin will cost you if you continue on. You lash out with human wisdom and reasoning, which I've already shown is foolishness compared to God's wisdom.

    I presented you with biblical truth, you see it as some silly superstitious 'threat', as a schizophrenic rant. This is your way of suppressing God's truth. You know He exists, for His word says so…
    Romans 1:18: "For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who by their unrighteousness suppress the truth.
    Rom 1:19 For what can be known about God is plain to them, because God has shown it to them.
    Rom 1:20 For his invisible attributes, namely, his eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly perceived, ever since the creation of the world, in the things that have been made. So they are without excuse.
    Rom 1:21 For although they knew God, they did not honor him as God or give thanks to him, but they became futile in their thinking, and their foolish hearts were darkened.'

    Your argument certainly is not with me, it is with the One who created you, God Almighty.

    September 23, 2012 at 11:28 AM Reply
  45. lyn #

    I want to add this, the demand for 'acceptance' of homosexuality opens doors for the demand of acceptance of all kinds of sexual immorality, here is an interesting news story out of Brazil concerning this very issue.. .http://global.christianpost.com/news/first-civil-union-between-three-partners-in-brazil-sparks-outrage-80592/

    The downward spiral of morality continues, which leads to a dysfunctional society. Event the children raised by homosexual 'unions' suffer, as this man attests to {note, this man is NOT a Christian} http://www.thepublicdiscourse.com/2012/08/6065

    September 23, 2012 at 2:36 PM Reply
  46. Peggy #

    Excellent A.C.- well said- I agree with you. His description about the gay community not being persecuted is a clearly a tip that he has not lived in the world I do.

    September 24, 2012 at 10:39 AM Reply
  47. Daniel Klembara #

    1.Looking for downward spiral if imorality is pure paranoia. Just look into past, there were horrible things going on even in most civilized place at the time like Europe. Torture was normal practice of a law etc..
    Now we have much more humanity in common sense of morality. Its typical sex obssesed religious paranoia. There are happening far more important thigns than marriage of three people. GREED, got whole western world to the big financial crisis, but everybody is looking at three people…its hypocrycy.

    2.But to answer you, if the sekular world is unclean and religious offer the right path. In huge part of world is marriage of three or more people consider right, and its cause of same system as you keep the dearest- beliefs, religion. Now Iam in Indonesia, few days ago i spoked with man that is going to marry a second wife, and in islam there is no limit for this. And this peope believe in their teaching, and gods sended message as same as you. Maybe even more, they pray half of a day.

    3.What is so immoral about marriage of two people? I hear your answer already: cause jesus said the marriage is between one man and one woman. But not all people believe in jesus. What is so wrong about that for me or others? I dont see it. For me such a union wouldnt work, but if they are happy its their thing.
    There is nothing etenraly immoral about it, its just immoral in certain types of culture in certain era. The same like for most of people is horribly immoral walking naked in street. But just think of it. We have external sexual organs, we all knows how it looks like, no doubt about it, but still even I can not imagine it should be allowed. But on the other hand what is eternaly immoral about it? Nothing, its just tradition, WE made it tabu, the same like marriages of three people its tabu, WE made it, but we can get also rid of it, when its stop plays the importance.
    We will never stop the tabu of having sex with animals etc. But we can get rid of some unnecceseraly taboos. The one that actually doesnt hurt to anyone, but were settled by tradition

    4.
    This is your way of suppressing God’s truth. You know He exists, for His word says so…

    Sorry I dont know he exist, also you dont know, you just believe, by knowing you skiping the biggest religious virtue- believing.

    Its so typical..look….you say you know what is after death , you say you know everythng ( god), you even say you know what i think: you just want to get rid of your sin feeling etc…
    No i dont, never felt god, never seen im, never had need, and i certainly doesnt feel any sinful disgust. There is no any. I have it when i see killing, or poor child, i wanna fix it. But when i hug with my partner during watching movie, nothing…
    So dont tell me you know what is in my mind,
    Its typical arogance some of religious people have. You claim to know everything cause you claim to have a god on your side.

    5. You know He exists, for His word says so…

    Cant you see the childishness of this argument?
    He exist cause its written in the book that claims to be right, Quaran claims to be absolutly perfect its written in book that every word is dictated directly from god to mohammed, its claims to be absolut, something bible never claimed. It means by your argumentation quaran is better and you should follow. In quaran god says quaran is perfect. Why dotn you follow?

    See how can i believe bible, EVERYBODY, EVERYTHING in this world wants my attention, wants to posses my mind, every religiona nd there are tons of them and tons of them already dissappeared.

    Sorry Amy and all but how can i be not insulting ot person who give arguments in such a important debate like:
    5. You know He exists, for His word says so…

    I will make something now; Iam a god, all religions till now were wrong, but the new one i send on the earth is the most righteous, most true and beautiful. And homosexuality is not a sin. Its true cause i say so…

    September 24, 2012 at 5:01 PM Reply
  48. Daniel Klembara #

    I didnt noticed this at first

    6. – You lash out with human wisdom and reasoning, which I’ve already shown is foolishness compared to God’s wisdom-

    Sorry how exactly you showed me this? Human wisdom is foolishness compare to god wisdom? If you would be deadly ill and doctor would say you this pill is gonna save you the life what would you choose praying to god or taking the pill? Answer…
    You are again hypocratic- you use all the achievments of human wisdom and reasoning- how they make pills? they make research, they use data, they use evidences,- thats the way how thigns should be solved.
    And we can go on, do you drive car? i dont know about any plan of car in bible, plane? did you ever flight in plane, recently i flight a first time in my life, when it touched the ground i honestly had tears in my eyes. Human nd is so great.
    What about computer you are writing with on this discussion, or internet.
    Or discovery of evolution, dna, genetic study, understanding of atomic structure, …
    Human reasoning gave you everything we have, milons years ago we were just runing naked in bare nature, now all you come in touch its made by us, and its so beautiful we can understand so many things find the principe.

    And i know what you would do in pill situation. You would take it and prayed afterwards. And after being cured you would thank to god, not wisdom of humans.

    So dont be hypocritic about humand mind.

    September 25, 2012 at 12:05 AM Reply
  49. lyn #

    I wasn't referring to medical conditions when I stated human wisdom is foolish, I was referring to spiritual matters. This is what I was referring to when I spoke of the foolishness of human wisdom…"You claim to be a decent person, but you have sinned against a holy God, the God who created everyone and everything. You value yourself according to your own standards, here is what you need to know about the human mind, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9
    The word ‘heart’ comes from the Hebrew ‘lêb’ and is defined as ‘inner man, mind, will, heart, understanding, knowledge, thinking, reflection, memory, as seat of emotions and passions, inclination, resolution, determination (of will), heart (of moral character)’. Your ability to reason, discern, and judge is corrupt and is based on flawed thinking. ‘Deceitful’ reflects that, it is defined as ‘crooked, deceitful, polluted, fraudulent’. The human mind is polluted by sin and cannot make accurate decisions when it comes to spiritual matters. The Bible clearly calls homosexuality a sin, regardless of how good we think ourselves to be. We are all wicked sinners who have broken God’s perfect and holy law.
    Jeremiah 17:9 goes on to say ‘desperately sick’, which means ‘ incurable, sick, woeful’. The mind is diseased with sin, unable to cure itself because of this. That is why whatever assessment you have of yourself is flawed." Your claim to be a decent person prompted my biblical response to show the error of your assessing yourself by your own standards, which are corrupt due to your sin nature. If they weren't, you would know homosexuality is a sin and you would flee from it.
    Nowhere in my statement did I refer to medical car, or travel. As for evolution, I reject this theory and believe solely in the biblical creation; but that isn't what I want to discuss at the moment. As for our ability to make things, to treat illnesses, to build what we build, who gave us the mind to do so?

    As for me taking a pill, I have NO CLUE what you are talking about. I go to the doctor when necessary, for God gifts men and women with the ability to become doctors, nurses, specialists, etc. Christians suffer fatal illnesses and die, just like unbelievers. I am not sure where you get the idea God cures all our woes, He does not.

    I really see no point in continuing on with you, however, I will pray for you. You are a lost soul who is clueless to the God of heaven and earth and His great mercy for sinners. However, you see yourself not as a sinner, but as a decent person. May He humble you, may you see yourself as God sees you, a wicked sinner who is repulsive in His sight, and yet, He saves sinners just like you; not because you are worth it, but because He is rich in mercy and grace.

    September 25, 2012 at 1:53 AM Reply
  50. Daniel Klembara #

    1.I wasn’t referring to medical conditions when I stated human wisdom is foolish, I was referring to spiritual matters-
    I know you were refering just to what you want. You pick up from discoveries of human wisdom just what fits into your religion:
    As for evolution, I reject this theory and believe solely in the biblical creation; but that isn’t what I want to discuss at the moment-
    But its exactly what i want to discuss here. If people would really just hold on the topic- understanding of bible, and not making claims like: homosexuaity is based on lust and its selfish life style, i wouldnt jump into this…. But you and many people intentionaly refuse using reason:
    Human wisdom, research, collecting of evidence, huge, vast, number of evidence, you can say methaphorically all earth screams that evolution took the placce. And more we know more its supported. Biology, chemistry, physics , archeology, paleontology etc- everything fall piece to piece and witnessing the evolution.
    So that is what I was talking about, you trust human mind in many daily life situation likes taking a pill that chemistry produced, but refuse to take just another truimph that is evolution.
    There are two ways of thinking:

    1, search for thruth, using all metods human mind developed, metods that were able to reveal us so much about the reality, that we would never know reading just bible- NEVER.

    2, dogmatic way: believing all important things were inculuded in dogmatic system already in the past, and refusing anything that contradicts it.
    My question is: If someone can celebrate the human mind as gift from god, but be able to refuse one of biggest achievments just because it doesnt go on with dogma, should we build society on such a persons opinion? Refusing evolution is the same like refusing reality ( vast number of evidencce, daily life experience of milions of people) that homosexual partnerships are not selfish and based on lust. I could never produce any argument or any evidence that will seem valid to such a person. Cause its contradictionary to dogma.
    Its intentinoal concious process of refusing anything that doesnt go on with my own theory- does this seems as healthy process of searching for truth? No. Searching for truth means al above all thing- ALLWAYS BE PREPARED TO ACCCEPT YOU WERE WRONG- one of most beautiful ethic principles religion could never surive.
    So as far as we talk about goverment partnerships unions of homosexual, you can not apply this. Society should not, and steeply is building wall between goverment and religion in many parts of the world.

    3. You claim to be a decent person, but you have sinned against a holy God, the God who created everyone and everything. You value yourself according to your own standards, here is what you need to know about the human mind, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9
    This is beauty of religion i can never understand- it tells are we are all desperatly sick. IF this is what god made he is hugely sadistic. Its again religious based idea, that just work as a selfdiminishing torture. Do we need to continue to look on ourselfs as a dirty pigs, however we try to be good. Jeremiah says we are desperadly sick, and you believe him, I say people are not perfect. Choose yourself.
    We are all wicked sinners who have broken God’s perfect and holy law-
    Again, yeah just pour the mud on your had, its sado-masochistic principle. I dont see nothing perfect, about it.

    4. He saves sinners just like you; not because you are worth it, but because He is rich in mercy and grace.
    I thought christianity is open eye religion- everybody have the value and everbody is worth of love even the biggest sinner. I thought harddogmatic personlike you would notice this or I was wrong and in gods eyes some persons are worthless?

    5. I really see no point in continuing on with you, however, I will pray for you
    Well thats difference between us I will never stop.

    October 1, 2012 at 5:35 PM Reply
  51. Daniel Klembara #

    1.I wasn’t referring to medical conditions when I stated human wisdom is foolish, I was referring to spiritual matters-
    I know you were refering just to what you want. You pick up from discoveries of human wisdom just what fits into your religion:
    As for evolution, I reject this theory and believe solely in the biblical creation; but that isn’t what I want to discuss at the moment-
    But its exactly what i want to discuss here. If people would really just hold on the topic- understanding of bible, and not making claims like: homosexuaity is based on lust and its selfish life style, i wouldnt jump into this…. But you and many people intentionaly refuse using reason:
    Human wisdom, research, collecting of evidence, huge, vast, number of evidence, you can say methaphorically all earth screams that evolution took the placce. And more we know more its supported. Biology, chemistry, physics , archeology, paleontology etc- everything fall piece to piece and witnessing the evolution.
    So that is what I was talking about, you trust human mind in many daily life situation likes taking a pill that chemistry produced, but refuse to take just another truimph that is evolution.
    There are two ways of thinking:

    1, search for thruth, using all metods human mind developed, metods that were able to reveal us so much about the reality, that we would never know reading just bible- NEVER.

    2, dogmatic way: believing all important things were inculuded in dogmatic system already in the past, and refusing anything that contradicts it.
    My question is: If someone can celebrate the human mind as gift from god, but be able to refuse one of biggest achievments just because it doesnt go on with dogma, should we build society on such a persons opinion? Refusing evolution is the same like refusing reality ( vast number of evidencce, daily life experience of milions of people) that homosexual partnerships are not selfish and based on lust. I could never produce any argument or any evidence that will seem valid to such a person. Cause its contradictionary to dogma.
    Its intentinoal concious process of refusing anything that doesnt go on with my own theory- does this seems as healthy process of searching for truth? No. Searching for truth means al above all thing- ALLWAYS BE PREPARED TO ACCCEPT YOU WERE WRONG- one of most beautiful ethic principles religion could never surive.
    So as far as we talk about goverment partnerships unions of homosexual, you can not apply this. Society should not, and steeply is building wall between goverment and religion in many parts of the world.

    3. You claim to be a decent person, but you have sinned against a holy God, the God who created everyone and everything. You value yourself according to your own standards, here is what you need to know about the human mind, “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately sick; who can understand it?” Jeremiah 17:9
    This is beauty of religion i can never understand- it tells are we are all desperatly sick. IF this is what god made he is hugely sadistic. Its again religious based idea, that just work as a selfdiminishing torture. Do we need to continue to look on ourselfs as a dirty pigs, however we try to be good. Jeremiah says we are desperadly sick, and you believe him, I say people are not perfect. Choose yourself.
    We are all wicked sinners who have broken God’s perfect and holy law-
    Again, yeah just pour the mud on your had, its sado-masochistic principle. I dont see nothing perfect, about it.

    4. He saves sinners just like you; not because you are worth it, but because He is rich in mercy and grace.
    I thought christianity is open eye religion- everybody have the value and everbody is worth of love even the biggest sinner. I thought harddogmatic personlike you would notice this or I was wrong and in gods eyes some persons are worthless?

    5. I really see no point in continuing on with you, however, I will pray for you
    Well thats difference between us I will never stop.

    October 1, 2012 at 5:35 PM Reply
  52. lyn #

    Your argument is with your Maker, not with me.

    Goodbye

    October 2, 2012 at 1:55 PM Reply
  53. lyn #

    Daniel,

    After reading this, I just had to share it with you, This is from John MacArthur, who pastors a church in California…

    Turn to Psalm 107, and I’m going to close there–Psalm 107. Some years ago I was standing here at the beginning of the service, and I got up to read the Scripture, and this is what I read, starting at verse 4, “They wandered in the wilderness in a desert region; they didn’t find a way to an inhabited city. They were hungry and thirsty; their soul fainted within them. Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble; He delivered them out of their distresses. He led them also by a straight way, to …an inhabited city. Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness, and for His wonders to the sons of men! For He has satisfied the thirsty soul, and the hungry soul He has filled with what is good. There were those who dwelt in darkness and in the shadow of death, prisoners in misery and chains, because they had rebelled against the words of God and spurned the counsel of the Most High. Therefore He humbled their heart with labor; they stumbled there was none to help. Then they cried out to the Lord in their trouble; He saved them out of their distresses. He brought them out of darkness and the shadow of death…broke their bands apart. Let them give thanks to the Lord for His lovingkindness, and for His wonders to the sons of men! For He has shattered gates of bronze and cut bars of iron asunder.” I read that.

    After the service was over, a handsome, tall man, 6’ 3” or so, walked up to me. He’d been sitting right back there. His name was Robert Logerstrum. He was one of the directors of the gay pride parade in Los Angeles, lived completely consumed in a world of homosexuals, and was dying of AIDS.
    He said, “I have to talk to you; I have to talk to you.” I said, “Absolutely.” So we sat and talked and he said, “I just have to tell you, you preach a long time.” I said, “Well, why are you saying that?” He said, “Because when you read that Scripture, I knew I was in the right place, and I just wanted to get wherever I needed to get, to whoever I needed to talk to, to tell how the Lord could break the bands of iron and bondage that holds me. And then you kept talking, and talking, and talking, and talking.” Later when I talked to him on a couple occasions, he couldn’t remember the sermon. All he remembered was the Scripture.
    But, he gave his life to Christ. He was dying of AIDS, and he went to some of his friends and he said, “I don’t want to die. I’m terrified to die. Where can I get help?” And the homosexual friends that he had said go to Grace Community Church. They sent him here. These are unconverted people who know the reputation of the church.
    He came that one Sunday. He came, gave his life to Christ. I baptized him right here a few weeks later. He was totally transformed. He went back and the gay pride parade, went down Hollywood Boulevard, right by his apartment, and all his friends came by to see him in his dying days, and he gave the gospel to all of them. And he went to glory. And his baptism testimony was recorded and played at his funeral to the whole homosexual community.

    October 4, 2012 at 11:10 AM Reply
  54. Daniel Klembara #

    I read stories like that from christians.
    What does they proove?

    That homosexuals are sick? Loving just for a selfish lust? Having a same sex lover ultimatelly leads to AIDS?
    I dont see how it prooves, can you explain me and make valid argument for debate?

    Only one thing it explains to me very clearly- people facing death desperadly seeking something to hold on- it can be even lie.

    October 6, 2012 at 2:43 AM Reply
  55. lyn #

    What does it prove? That God is merciful, that we are ALL sinners in need of grace and mercy. It proves that God saves wicked, vile sinners, even when they've spent their whole lives in blatant rebellion against Him. In some cases, on their deathbed, fearing death because NOW reality sinks in, they are terrified, they seek God because they know they are about to face Him in judgment because of their crimes against Him.
    Prayerfully, it won't take you being near death before you cry out to the God who gave you life to save you and gift you with eternal life.

    October 8, 2012 at 1:02 PM Reply
  56. Daniel Klembara #

    What does it prove? That God is merciful, that we are ALL sinners in need of grace and mercy. It proves that God saves wicked

    If that would be true he would be saved- but he died. No miracle happen, no aids dissapearing, he died happy- cause religion offers comfort, but if its comfort it doesnt meant its true, religion is succesful mind play.

    The fact that he believed and died happy its not proove of existing of anyone. And even less its proof that having loving partner of same sex relationship is wicked crime etc.

    He just thought so.

    Imagine non religious people protecting homosexuality by- i heard about man who said homosexuality is ok.

    So stop being childish, put adult comment.

    October 8, 2012 at 6:47 PM Reply
  57. Matthew Vines's pro-gay interpretation of scripture is clearly erroneous and self-serving. There is absolutely no biblical justification for homosexuality.
    Professing christians can make their arguments for same-sex "love and marriage" but they will never win the hearts and minds of the true believers. The Bible is very clear about homosexuality and by the written word it defies all attempts at misinterpreting and distorting that.
    To try and twist the scriptures to justify immorality only shows rebelliousness against the spirit of God. These people are indeed blinded by their burning lusts of self-will. They can never withstand public debate and scrutiny, especially when it comes to powerful God fearing believers like James White.
    May God continue to bless this brother with a great Christian faith and intellect.
    No hate here, only amazement.

    October 13, 2012 at 1:53 PM Reply
  58. Scott Wagner #

    5 hour rebuttal to Matthew Vine.
    http://aomin.org/podcasts/GayChristianityRefuted….

    December 28, 2012 at 8:46 AM Reply
    • DR #

      First of all, in Matthew Vine's Video, he begins his "two problems" of traditional interpretation by speaking of the Good Tree, Good Fruit, Bad Tree, Bad Fruit that Jesus spoke of. Within the context, Matthew is indeed correct that Jesus was speaking about false teachers.

      However, Vines is in error because he gives his own application of this teaching. He questions whether bad fruit can come from a good tree. In this exploration of his question, he applies Jesus' words to the Genesis account of Adam and Eve. What God created is good, but one thing was found not to be good. Adam was alone and needed a suitable helper.

      Matthew Vines then applies this Good Fruit Bad Fruit teaching to this scripture and takes off with it to apply it to his own viewpoints.

      In his application, he explains that Adam needed a suitable helper, and Eve, a woman, met that requirement. However, Vines argues that this "good suitable helper" would not be a "good suitable helper" in his case or that of the homosexual community.

      By saying this, Vines attempts to redefine what is "good" and what God defined good as. God defined his creation and actions as "good" and "very good". If God's actions and the product of those actions was considered good by God Himself, is not His action of providing the woman for Adam also good and according to His plan, will and definition of "good"?

      Vines is in error because of this attempt to redefine the absolute character of God, because God is the definition of good and the source of all that is good. Therefore Matthew Vines does not determine what is good, but God does.

      Vines is twisting the words of God and has decided to apply them to suite is own viewpoints and experiences, arguing that one's experience (whether circumstances in life, feelings, emotions, etc.) trumps God's will, command, and character.

      April 9, 2013 at 6:55 AM Reply
  59. C Lynn #

    I was born gay, knew from a very early age that I was attracted to boys. If Xtians cannot handle that fact, tough. Perhaps it is time to bring back the Romans and the lions.

    February 5, 2013 at 12:21 PM Reply
  60. Toni #

    It is obvious that Matthew Vines is twisting the WORD of GOD to manipulate absolution for homosexuality from Christians. He cites certain scripture and speaks as though he really does have a relationship with the LORD, yet he has no qualms with taking advantage of those who are ignorant of the true WORD of GOD. GOD did NOT create or design homosexuality, it is not natural to HIS creation. At NO time does the WORD change the status of homosexuality (or adultery, incest, bestiality, sexual promiscuity, etc) from being anything less than an ABOMINATION to GOD. JESUS came to redeem us. HE paid the price, that we could not pay for breaking GODS' laws, but HE DID NOT change the status of sin. As true believers in CHRIST and what HE has done for us, we also FOLLOW HIS Commandments. One of the 2, that HE called the most important is to "love the LORD our GOD with all our heart, soul, and might". IF we come to HIM, truly repentant, seeking to close the gap between us and GOD by accepting HIS gift of redemption, AND we follow HIS commandment to love GOD with all that we are, we will care enough, and love GOD enough to quit mocking HIS WORD, and turn away from those things which he HATES. Manipulating situations and words to fill selfish desires as though GOD will not notice is very much a mistake. HE states that HE will, at some point, stop trying to call that person to repentance and leave them to their own devices. We, true Christians, those who have taken up the task of making the effort, through HIS WORD and by the power of HIS Spirit, to know HIM, do try to inform and warn others, in love, and at the risk of persecution and being called haters, because we do not want to see anyone go to hell. Whether you believe in it or not is a choice. But if you don't and you are wrong, it will not be place that there will be any turning back from. There will be no one like us to "bother" you about giving your life to GOD, no comforting, no love, no 2nd chances, no hope, no one to talk to, GOD HIMSELF will not be there (as HE is now with us), you will "feel" the desolation, despair, fear, unending tormenting thoughts, and whatever else hell has to offer….forever. IF Matthew Vines really KNEW the truth of what is a stake, he would not be misrepresenting and manipulating GODS' own WORDS to become stumbling blocks to others and a making a mockery of GOD'S WORD.JESUS said that it would be better that someone tie a mill around the neck of a man and throw him into the sea than to face the wrath of GOD against the man that leads even one of HIS children astray. Does anyone care that we are talking about the Creator of all things? HE made, through HIS GRACE, a way for us, but justice WILL come, and whoever misses it will lose. Everyone wants to hear about the love and grace of GOD, and it is true and awesome. BUT the truth is there will come a time, soon, that GOD will lift HIS protection and many will have to face very terrible things. GOD does have enemies, and HE does war, and HE does execute judgement. Man alone cannot save himself. To think that by being "good" GOD will overlook the sin is another big mistake. Only through CHRIST can salvation come. The question is, how sincere and true is the person that comes to CHRIST. HIS part is done. BUT is a man who does and promotes those things which GOD considers an abomination, and hates, and continues to lead others astray in the same thing, for his own selfish desires, really be sincere about loving and following HIM?

    April 15, 2013 at 5:17 PM Reply
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