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Amy is co-host and blogger for both Stand Up for the Truth and Naomi's Table, two ministries that give her the opportunity to write and talk about Jesus all day long. She has written, produced and broadcast in the realm of television and radio news, magazine business journals and marketing materials. She continues her freelance work as a writer and social media consultant.

Hebrew Roots

dsfsdfdWe recently received a letter:

I just recently found your website and it seems very solid to me. My question has to do with the Hebrew Roots movement. Our son is deeply involved in this and insists that we should be, too. It has had a very divisive affect on our family. We have looked at the beliefs and practices of this movement and feel that it is placing people back under the law. In fact, our son tells us that we are NOT under a new covenant, but that the old covenant has been renewed and we should still practice all the feast days. He also says that celebrating Christmas and Easter are pagan and we should steer clear of them. He even says he is NOT a Christian, but a Hebrew. This deeply saddens us. Can you lend us some insight on this and how to respond to him? Thank you, B


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ZxccSo what exactly is the Hebrew Roots movement? We’re going to explore that topic in depth today. Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots assemblies with variations in their teachings, they all adhere to a common emphasis on recovering the “original” Jewishness of Christianity. That doesn’t sound so bad, does it? But as you’re going to hear today, this movement and the varients of it are leading people into grave deception.

 

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67 Responses to “Hebrew Roots”

  1. There is a lot of false information in this podcast about the Hebrew Roots movement. I would love to debate you live on the air in the #1 Hebrew Roots radio station on the internet PaRDeS Radio. Yet I have a feeling you are not up for the challenge

    January 18, 2013 at 8:49 PM Reply
  2. Also, you quoted Acts and never read the next line saying where it says he was not talking about food but people, to call no person unclean. Why were you dishonest and leave that verse out? Same with Matthew 5:17-19 and you left out two key verses you were very dishonest in your analysis. And I noticed Romans 3:31 was not quoted either when you quoted Romans 3 you left out verse 31. Hmmm, guess you do not want your listeners to check the Scripture, and to just trust you

    January 18, 2013 at 9:08 PM Reply
    • Right, Christopher, because that's what we tell our listeners every day at the beginning of every program: "Don't read the Bible; just trust us." Good grief. We have no interest in debating you about the Hebrew Roots Movement. That's not what our ministry is all about. You are welcome to be a part of whatever discussions we have about it though, just like everyone else.

      January 19, 2013 at 4:18 AM Reply
  3. Aleyna #

    I have a few questions for you.
    Where did the original Jewish religion come from? Who started it and why?
    Who is the original Jew? (maybe a history lesson from Exodus)
    The Jews were not a lone group of people in the wilderness.

    why do you put Paul's words above the words of Christ. Why is the church so rebellious towards God? Only wanting to teach grace.

    Why can't we obstain from evil. Christmas is a pagan evil holiday revolved around child sacrifice. Why would it be ok for Gods chosen to participate in pagan customs and traditions.

    It is important to follow dietary laws because the food God tells us to obstain from: shellfish and pork are full of parasites and bacterias. Many of these things are not killed during the cooking process. ( two weeks ago yahoo.com posted a news article with a picture of worms in a cooked ham.) Will eating these things kill us or even keep us out of Gods presence no, but if obeyed our church may enjoy health collectively.

    Duet. explains this well, God placed before us life and death, blessings and curses, why would we not want to obey our creator, why shun his advice and wisdom by believing He's done away with it. Rules for our benefit, not His!

    Also, the next Jubilee year is 2016, this year also hold several eclipses, and blood red moons. The Jewish (whom were entrusted the oracles of God ) maintain that these events signal the return of our Messiah, wouldn't it be nice for a pastor in a christian church explain why? From this passover to the Jewish feast of trumpets is exactly 1290 days, sound like something the church should be aware of? Maybe inform us followers of? But our pastors are too busy teaching us freedom from the law to read it and teach us from its pages.
    This is why the church population is dwindling and people are walking away.

    Our pastors teach a very different message than the one laid out within the pages of the King James bible. Jeremiah explains our fathers taught us lies. . . they sure did!
    And Paul warns of a day when people would not embrace sound doctrine. Looks like we've made it to that day as well.

    The deception is so great at the return of Christ, that even the elect are deceived. We have all read that verse, so why is so hard for the average Christian to see that maybe we've been deceived, being deceived is not a sin, but staying in that deception and turning your face from it is!
    Blessings to you all.
    Repent now for the kingdom of Heaven is near!

    January 23, 2013 at 9:22 AM Reply
    • della brengettsey #

      Blessings to you in the name of Yeshua!.

      January 31, 2014 at 9:36 AM Reply
  4. Trave' #

    So just wondering is the New Testament false doctrine in which we are not to trust and believe. It is there that tells us that we are no longer under the law but under grace. If as you two suggest and as the Hebrew Roots suggest are still under the law you know that if you break one law you have broken them all? So I take it that you conduct sacrifices in that to ask for forgiveness afterward? If you do that then what does that say for the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins? Oh my bad, that was in the New Testament as well. An interesting person once wrote, "The deception is so great at the return of Christ, that even the elect are deceived. We have all read that verse, so why is so hard for the average Christian to see that maybe we’ve been deceived, being deceived is not a sin, but staying in that deception and turning your face from it is!"
    "Return of Christ…" So you do believe in the New Testament? You either do or you don't. You decide.

    January 25, 2013 at 6:24 AM Reply
    • PaulO #

      Friend, salvation is by grace alone. Absolutely. But what then? 1 Corinthians 10 warns about craving evil things.

      Can we commit adultery? Steal? Give in to drunkenness? Ignore the Sabbath? God has explained to us what evil is throughout the Bible.

      Jesus re-established how we enter the covenant like Abraham, by faith. But were their unclean animals in the days of Abraham? In the days of Noah? In the days of Peter?

      Jesus once said, "Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets". Jesus is our example of how to live a life pleasing to God. He did what God desires of us, which was given in the Law and Prophets and New Testament.

      January 26, 2013 at 9:52 AM Reply
  5. Trave' #

    To live by rules "the law" is impossible, which is why we are saved by grace. Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He was the last sacrifice. If any attempt to re-establish that which He came to fulfill then that discredits His coming? Did it happen or didn't it?
    He came to establish relationship with us, That was what the covenant was. The relationship! Once one believes in the relationship the law is fulfilled in itself by the honoring of the relationship. Following laws with no relationship is just a system of rules and regulations in which one is to follow, which by the way that's what the Pharisees and the Sadducees were all about.

    January 27, 2013 at 6:45 AM Reply
    • PaulO #

      I agree, friend, that following laws with no relationship is just a system of rules and regulations. This is very true. On the flip side, how can you have a relationship with someone if you ignore what they like and dislike? If your spouse's least favorite color is green and you paint the house green inside and out, what kind of relationship do you have? To honor the relationship, you have to know those involved.

      My friend, I do not know the best way to explain this, but please study how the 1st century Hebrews viewed the idea of abolishing or fulfilling scripture. The law contained prophecy but is much more than that. He fulfilled the law through his teaching, and his example. If understood correctly (as Jesus taught) it was how to have a pleasing relationship with God. Read Matthew 5:17-48. He says the same thing three different ways: the law is not gone. Then he fulfills it right there in the rest of that chapter by teaching how it is, like you said, a relationship and not just rules and regulations. Those who say it doesn't apply anymore have, in essence, abolished it.

      Peace.

      January 27, 2013 at 7:22 AM Reply
      • Roy #

        Thanks PaulO.

        June 15, 2013 at 5:52 AM Reply
  6. Trave' #

    I like how you begin with friend. It lets me know that this is wonderful, conversation to rightly divide His word in which I welcome not in argument. Matthew 5:17-18 speaks volumes. Meaning we all shall still be judged by the law in which we all will be found guilty. Hence the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus. He has already paid the debt for our violations of the law. There remains no more sacrifice for sin. The truth that we know is that Christ Jesus, the son of God came in the flesh to die for our sins (violations of the law), and was resurrected beating death, now seated in heaven, We now honor that with our lives. Not attempting to go back and follow laws in which we will never be able to follow to the letter, but bringing others to the understanding that Christ has paid the price for we could not ever pay for.

    January 28, 2013 at 4:18 AM Reply
  7. Hebrew roots has started to include some very rabid legalism. It originally spun out of people's impressions of messianic Judaism which itself struggles with legalism frequently.

    Lord I pray for this listener's son. Very concerned parents who are feeling the pain of separation caused by the leaven of the Pharisees.

    July 2, 2013 at 10:23 AM Reply
  8. James Jordan #

    Folks, Jesus never came to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Remember, that the fulfillment of the Law is love. So while Jesus did not abolish the law, he brought the law to another level. Instead of committing an act of adultery, Jesus said that if a man LOOKS at a woman to committ adultery with her in his HEART he has committed adultery. The same as for murder. Jesus said that if you want to murder someone in your heart, it is as you have murdered him. Jesus can to give us a heart transplant, because if you love your God and your neighbor as Jesus commands, you will not lie against them, steal from them, murder them, refuse to help the poor, etc. The OT is very important and we need it. What do you think Jesus and Paul and Peter quoted from? The OT. Jesus was born under the Law, so there was no way that He could do away with it or fulfill it until His death. Hebrews 9 points out that a covenant (OT) cannot be annulled until the death of the testator. It's like writing a will. You can write a will today but not die for another 30 years, and the will does not go into effect until you die. Same with the OT. It was annulled when Jesus died, for what the Bible calls a "new and living way." Or a covenant with "better promises." Why look back at the old way of doing things? Like someone stated earlier and what James 2 states, if you go back to observing the Law, you must observe all of it or you are guilty of disobeying all of it. There is no way we can keep all of the 600 laws (ceremonial, judicial, and moral) that God put on the people. That's why Jesus came preaching repentance, grace, and mercy, not condemnation.

    November 15, 2013 at 4:40 AM Reply
    • Ben #

      Let us be as the noble Bareans and test what Paul preaches to see of it is true. After all Peter did warm us at the end of 2Peter 3 that Paul is hard to understand, and those who don't know the Old Testament will error in lawlessness. Jesus didn't bring the law to a new level (adding to Gods law is sin) He was correcting our understanding of it. Exactly as prophesied in Deu 18:15, and what the woman at the well (John4) is expecting the messiah to do "lead us into all truth".

      Are we to Sin? We all know the answer is no. But what is sin? Breaking Gods law is sin. (1 John 3:4) and we had not known sin BUT by the law ( Romans 7:7). So if we are not to sin, and the law defines sin, shouldn't we follow Christ' example and walk in Truth? Not for salvation but because he saved us.

      Grace and Peace

      November 30, 2013 at 9:39 AM Reply
      • Roy #

        1. Keep the letter, 2. Keep the spirit, or 3. Keep the letter and spirit, I wonder which He wants us to do!

        Mark 10:19 “You know the commands, ‘Do not commit adultery,’ ‘Do not murder,’ ‘Do not steal,’ ‘Do not bear false witness,’ ‘Do not rob,’ ‘Respect your father and your mother.’ ”

        20 And he answering, said to Him, “Teacher, all these I have watched over from my youth.”

        21 And יהושע, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “One matter you lack: Go, sell all you possess and give to the poor, and you shall have treasure in heaven. And come, follow Me, taking up the stake.”

        December 1, 2013 at 3:09 AM Reply
  9. Roy #

    Ben,
    I meant to reply to James, but I clicked the wrong "reply" button. Sorry, I will pay more attention to the screen instructions to respond well. But since I'm here, I liked your response. The woman at the well has always been of high interest to me…

    December 1, 2013 at 3:31 AM Reply
  10. The Law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Christ has come, and we are no longer under that tutor. Instead, we are under a greater and more perfect Law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The greater and more perfect Law is written in our hearts and minds. It delivered us from the Law of "sin and death" (Mosaic Law) and its fruit "a body of death". Individuals that believe in the Hebrew Roots heresy do not accept any of these biblical truths. As with all individuals that are deceived in this final great period of deception and apostasy, they will parse words, pry apart the scriptures and insert extra-biblical meanings, and believe what they wish to believe. HRM proponents turn to the du Tillet (a forged version of Matthew) because God's word presents a clear position diametrically opposite of the Hebrew Roots doctrine. They commit the same error that every deceived individual commits. They cannot be reasoned with and no amount of truth will convince them of their error. That error is; of course the Bible is incomplete, misinterpreted, or misunderstood, of course generations of godly Christians were completely wrong and thus preached and taught a false salvation, of course "they" (the HRM) are the persecuted minority because they are the only ones with truth, of course God has chosen them in these last days to be the only true Christians, and etc. Of course, but it is what every deceived individual declares. This is the last days. We are in a period of great darkness, deception, delusion and apostasy. It is not the time to be falsely rationalizing the truth into heresy. Guard your hearts and minds! The flood is coming and the standard is being raised. The HRM is part of the flood.

    December 5, 2013 at 2:37 AM Reply
    • Ben #

      Hi C.H.

      Logically speaking can you improve perfection? Think about it… When I read the inspired word of God, I find that David calls the law perfect. James agrees and calls it the perfect law of liberty. Paul says the law is Holy, righteous, and good. We had not known sin but by the law!

      1 question I would ask is why are you hostle towards the very words of God? The instructions that He gave us to live by? Show me 1 verse where Christ denounces, disregards, belittles, or disqualifies the law. Not only have I found none, but I read Him saying the exact opposite.

      I submit to you that your "biblical truths" are not true, but they are exactly what Peter warns us about. Most if not all of the proof texts to support your doctrine come from Paul who is the one author that Peter warns about… Coincidence? Paul is not wrong, just hard to read and misquoted. We even have James telling Paul this very thing in acts 21:24.

      I am certainly willing to reason with you or anyone else, but we must use the ENTIRE Word of God, and logic. Your post sadly enough missed on both of these.

      I know what you are saying, I grew up in the church and learned the dogma. There is nothing new under the sun, there were the religious elite of Christs day who rejected the law to keep their traditions (mark 7), and the "church" has her own traditions… Study to show yourself approved. And take the advise of Paul to Timothy 2 Tim 3:14-17 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      And to clarify, He was not talking about the New Testament since it wasn't even written yet.

      1 John 1;5-7 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
      6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
      7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
      Read the whole letter to get context..

      So let me again challenge everyone to be as the noble Bareans who searched the scriptures (The law, profits, and writings of the old testament) to see if what Paul said was true… Since they approved of Paul, we can deduce that what Paul preached WAS according to what they read… We have the very same book to test ANYTHING and EVERYTHING to!

      Grace and Peace

      December 5, 2013 at 12:23 PM Reply
  11. Steve Samples #

    Christopher,
    I would be happy to 'reason from the scriptures' with you on the subject. We can dialogue here, personally, or you can establish another manner.

    December 7, 2013 at 5:03 AM Reply
  12. Ben,

    First, I’m not trying to convince you. In fact, in this period of great deception and apostasy I have not been able to convince anyone to renounce a heresy. I only post this response for the benefit of individuals that may read this page and that are intrigued by the HRM deception.

    You wrote: “When I read the inspired word of God, I find that David calls the law perfect. James agrees and calls it the perfect law of liberty.”
    You are referring to two different forms of law. Of course, David was correct in that the Law was perfect in his time. The Law was a perfect schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, among other things. But had David known the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, he would have thought it to be more perfect law because it provides liberty. After all, it is not perfect to slaughter lambs for sin since it has to be done repeatedly. When the perfect Lamb was slain, He with one act provided atonement forever. Thus, He fulfilled the Mosaic Law and released us from its ordinances. A higher, greater, and more perfect law has been written in our minds. It does not come with the ordinances attached to the Mosaic Law.

    Therefore, James is not referring to the Mosaic Law, the law of bondage, but to the perfect law of liberty.
    But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:25)

    The Mosaic Law was a reflection of the Divine Nature of God. The law in our minds is the Divine Nature. Christ declared that the Law can be reduced to two commandments, love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. The law that is written in our hearts and minds teaches us this exact truth. When God saved me, I did not receive a law that impressed me with the ordinances of the Mosaic Law, but with love for God and humanity. I received the elements of the Divine Nature of Christ as expressed by Peter in 2 Peter 1. In that statement of calling and election for salvation, Peter, the most Judaistic of all the disciples, never mentions the Mosaic Law.
    But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11 NKJV)

    Of course, Paul writes about the Law of liberty Romans.
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free (liberty!) from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2NKJV) (The law of sin and death; someone sins, an animal dies.)

    Paul also declared that the Mosaic Law that made us to know sin also trapped us in a “body of death” (Read the entirety of Romans 7). The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set us free from the Mosaic Law of sin and death, and thus delivered us from the “body of death”.

    To illustrate which law is more perfect, consider the following verses.

    Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

    You also wrote: “1 question I would ask is why are you hostle towards the very words of God?”
    There is nothing in my post that warrants such an accusation. Additionally, at some point in a debate HRM proponents will offer an extrabiblical defense and marginalize certain portions of the New Testament. Will that not be hostility to God’s Word?

    You also wrote: “And to clarify, He was not talking about the New Testament since it wasn’t even written yet.”
    Possibly, but Paul did say “scriptures”, not Mosaic Law. The Old Testament is much more than the Mosaic Law with its ordinances. However, your point is illogical because you are implying that the work of Christ was not prominent since it had not been written. However, Paul and other church leaders knew what Christ accomplished with His atoning death and taught the Early Church verbally. They were called Christians; not Judaizers. Even in the O.T. there are references to the atoning work of Christ as Paul taught in the New Testament. This is clear even in the N.T. verse that you posted.
    And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)

    Finally, I will not post all the scriptures, but my following post contains a number of verses that defeat the HRM heresy. You can deny what they declare, add to them, or alter them, or take them as they are written. It is your prerogative. The meaning is clear for everyone who loves truth more than doctrine.

    December 9, 2013 at 1:24 PM Reply
    • Ben #

      Hi CH
      Not to belabor a point but you agreed that David calls gods law perfect, then you say we have a "more perfect" law, then you call Gods law bondage? That is the very definition of illogical. The law hasn't changed, Hebrews makes it clear that the priesthood reverted back to the malchisadek order… The sacrifices are complete and fullfilled in Christ.

      The commandments, statutes and ordinances are given to us so that we know right from wrong.

      The law of sin and death means if you sin, you die. It is most assuredly still in place today. HOWEVER those who put their faith in Christ are no longer under the death penalty since Christ paid it! Amen?! Those who reject Christ will die. Where there is no law, there can be no sin.

      Keeping his commands shows whether we love him, and believe him or not. Deu 13:3,4. Also 1 John 1:6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth…

      God said "I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage." (Just before He gives the 10 commandments) and then he puts them back into bondage? Again not only is that illogical, but it attacks the very character of God.

      Christ said (Matt 5:19) Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach [them], the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

      You wrote that it is "possible" that the New Testament wasn't written yet… How exactly could Timothy read what Paul wrote to him before Paul wrote to him? Think about it…

      What Paul wrote and taught was not considered scripture by the Bareans (who are called noble) because they searched the OT to prove Paul, They did not assume Paul.

      To be clear, I don't want to be little the NT. I only want to heed the warnings found there in about twisting it and error (ie 2 Peter 2; 2Peter 3:15-17)

      I noticed your next post has only Paul's verses and Hebrews (which may or may not be Paul). For every verse you quote that appears to say the law is done away, I can quote another of Paul's to say the exact opposite. How is that possible?

      Consider that Paul is not nullifying the law, but the false teaching that you are saved by keeping it. We are saved from our transgression but we continue to walk in the way of peace because God said it is how we ought to walk. And he knows what is right and good for us.

      Do we trust Him?

      December 11, 2013 at 9:58 PM Reply
      • Roy #

        I currently call this Torah plus, for example Torah says "do not murder", Messiah says "not only do not murder, but don't even think about it", Torah says "do not commit adultery", Messiah says "not only do not commit adultery, don't even think about it", and so on for all of the individual instructions in Torah. Why? For the same reason that I cleaned my room and did my assigned chores when I was a kid, love and respect for my parents. Can I do Torah plus? Ouch!

        December 12, 2013 at 6:10 AM Reply
  13. HRM Exposed

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4 NKJV)

    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4 NKJV) (Law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law.)

    The entire chapter of Hebrews 10. Here is an excerpt.

    For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. (Hebrews 10:1-4 NKJV)

    For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    (Heb 8:7-10 and verse 13 NKJV)

    The entire book of Galatians. Here are some excerpts.
    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” (Galatians 3:1-6 NKJV)

    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14)

    Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations–Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using–according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. (Colossians 2:20-23 NKJV)

    December 9, 2013 at 1:25 PM Reply
    • Red #

      C.H. in Romans 10:4 I think you misunderstand the word "end" (telos), you assume that it means stop/kaput, done away, but it means nearly the opposite. When I was growing up, people would say "What is your telos", that question wasn't asking how will I end up but rather, what is my passion, what drives me, what is my purpose for living; telos means purpose for living.

      So Romans 10:4 says something really important for this discussion, Saul says here that the purpose of nomos (law, Torah, scripture, rulings, precepts, commands,…) is to lead the Faithful into (to practice until they get it right) Messiah's Righteousness

      January 31, 2014 at 9:33 AM Reply
      • C. H. Fisher #

        Red, I don't misunderstand anything in Romans 10:4. There is nothing ambiguous about that verse. But this is not a debate about the Greek text. That is where all HRM apologists go when they are pinned by truth and have no recourse but to create a cloud and shift the focus of the debate. One Greek word may have many different entries in the lexicon, one for each semantic sense. Anyone that has ever studied Greek knows this. It is a whole other debate for what meaning each word takes on in each situation. It is an endless debate among various Greek authorities. Just stick to the topic. Every chapter in Romans leading up to Romans 10:4 is against your doctrine. Therefore, in that context telos (τέλος) means "[the] end". What occurred in your childhood has nothing to do with it.

        February 3, 2014 at 8:10 PM Reply
  14. Ben,
    Concerning your statement about the perfect law, you apparently do not understand what I wrote. Please try reading it again slowly. Further, I never wrote “God's is law bondage”, but the Mosaic Law that Paul declared is bondage because it trapped him in a “body of death” (read Romans 7 and 8 in a continuous flow). Sadly, you are misquoting me, which misrepresents what I wrote. Go back and read that part of my post again. Please choose not to insert “God’s law” where I refer to the Mosaic Law. Although the Mosaic Law and the Law written in our hearts and minds are both given by God, God's word differentiates between the two. The reason is because the Law God gave to Moses was fulfilled by Christ Jesus. The law God’s people must abide by now is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, written in our hearts and minds. To cling to the Mosaic Law is to deny the atonement and to deny the power and necessity of the Holy Spirit. Because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the law written in our hearts and minds is far more powerful and persuasive than the law Moses wrote. For that reason, we do not need the Mosaic Law (“touch not, taste not, handle not”) ordinances that was nailed to the cross of Christ (Colossians 2:14).

    As I said, I am not trying to convince you. If you want to believe in the Hebrew Roots doctrine, no one will be able to convince you otherwise. I have no more time to devote to this type of discombobulated debate. I’ve made my case and you have made yours. Let the people decide.

    December 12, 2013 at 4:32 PM Reply
    • Ben #

      C.H.
      I love to dig into the bible. It appears you do as we'll. there is a lot of doctrine/traditions passed down to us from generations past. You can see it all across the board in every denomination and ever increasing in the "mega churches" of today.

      Traditions are nothing new, Christ spent a lot of time rebuking the Pharisees because they honored God with their lips but their hearts were far from Him, they claimed to follow Gods law (Torah, Mosaic law, the way of peace, the light, the truth, etc) but instead they rejected it as Christ makes it clear in Mark chapter 7 and other places,

      Of all the teachings of the HRM you must admit it is a great thing to see men dig into their bible and search to find truth! Their will unfortunately always be pew Warmers who show up and take the preachers word for fact, but that is the opposite of what is happening.

      I think the biggest divide between us is the lack of teaching in our day about the traditions of men. Hear me out. This one understanding clears up a lot. You quoted from Colossians 2:21 taste not, touch not, handle not, calling that the mosaic law, but consider the very next verse "Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?" It is not the mosaic law, but the commandments and doctrines of men ie the traditions of the elders.

      The Pharisees did not reject Christ because they followed the mosaic law (as i was led to believe growing up) they rejected Christ Because they ALREADY rejected Moses! If they believed Moses, they would have believed Christ!

      Another thought i would like to challange you to consider… Colossians 2:14 Christ did not nail the law to the cross, but the punishment or the ticket for transgressing the Law. Otherwise we have Christ destroying (doing away with, eliminating what ever you want to call it) the Law, AFTER He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law. making Him a liar, or using semantics to deceive… Think about it, no, study and pray about it.

      Gods word never changes, and His instructions (which is what Torah means) about how to live are not a burden. I am curious which laws in particular would be a burden for you?

      Some claim there are 613 laws in the OT. However many of them only apply to the Levites/priests, some are for women, some are for men. About 20 or so involve what is right sexually, which could be summed up in a monogamous relations with your wife only… But God spells it out to be totally clear. Just like some claim there are 1050 laws in the NT! Are they a burden? ,

      Of course not… If we believe God knows best.

      Shalom

      December 13, 2013 at 11:25 AM Reply
      • Ben,
        Evidently, you did not read my post where I clearly declare that I do not have the time to enter a debate of this sort. I have to choose wisely with what to do with my time and with whom I may have a qualified debate. I will answer your post, and then for your sake and my time, you should let it rest. There is no defense of the HRM that you could make that God’s word cannot defeat.

        You challenge me on Colossians 2:21, declaring that it is not the Mosaic Law but the doctrines and commandments of men. Clearly you have not considered the context of what Paul wrote. The doctrines and commandments of men were not “a shadow of things to come” (vs 16) but the Mosaic Law was. However, Paul never stated that he was talking about the commandments of men, but only that the Mosaic Law is according (or similar) to the doctrines and commandments of men. This is clearly recognized in the fact that it was added to by men and also the fact that other religions have doctrines and commandments in a similar manner. The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus is not according to the doctrines and commandments of men. God did away with that particular form when Christ fulfilled and therefore made the Mosaic Law old and irrelevant. No other religion has a Holy Spirit, or such a Law that makes the individual increasing more like Christ.

        In your next challenge you declare that my statement about Colossians 2:14 is invalid by declaring “Christ did not nail the law to the cross, but the punishment or the ticket for transgressing the Law. Otherwise we have Christ destroying (doing away with, eliminating what ever you want to call it) the Law, AFTER He said He did NOT come to destroy the Law. making Him a liar, or using semantics to deceive…”
        Again, you violate the exegesis and context of the Scripture. The verse says nothing about the punishment for transgressing the Mosaic Law. Clearly, you have forced that opinion on the text. It states, “14 having wiped out the handwriting of requirements that was against us, which was contrary to us. And He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.” However, you go on to declare that I make Christ a liar by again violating the exegesis and context of Matthew 5:17, where Christ states, “Do not think that I came to destroy the Law or the Prophets. I did not come to destroy but to fulfill.” I have consistently declared that Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law, thereby ending its authority and that God the Father replaced it with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. The new Law is greater than the old Law because it resides in us through the Divine Nature, the Holy Spirit. It is more powerful and intimate because it is embedded in our hearts and minds. What it does not do is go back to the shadows, e.g., regulations, ordinances, and other requirements that Christ nailed to His cross by His atoning death as the perfect Lamb. When you declare that I make Christ out to be a liar, and attempt to prove that by quoting partial scripture, you again commit the deed of which you accuse me of.

        Additionally, you presume that I have received my doctrine from men or from church tradition. That is incorrect. I had read the Bible completely before I ever entered a church building. Further, I have never been influenced by a “mega church” and never attended seminary. My doctrine comes from the volume of the book (Bible). You are right about a couple of statements, i.e., God’s word never changes, and He spells it out to be totally clear. Fulfilled prophecy is not changed or destroyed prophecy. Just as fulfilled prophecy does not need to be repeated or clung to as if it has not been fulfilled, neither does the Mosaic Law that was fulfilled by Christ. Your greatest error is the problem of all individuals that fall into heresy. You appear to love doctrine more than truth. Thus, you do not read and study God’s word to discover truth, but to discover validation for doctrine. The symptom of this mindset is evident by the fact that you frequently take verses out of context, misquote the Scriptures by leaving out vital parts, and in the case of Colossians 2:14, you literally inserted your doctrine into the text. By that error, you again have committed what you accused me of doing. It is a common trait in individuals that have succumbed to a heresy. I seldom debate such individuals because they cannot break out of the lure of the deception in the atmosphere of the last days. It becomes a fruitless endeavor.

        You asked me what part of the Mosaic Law in particular would be a burden for me. No part of the Mosaic Law would be a burden if the Holy Spirit instructed me to obey them. However, the Holy Spirit has never instructed me to obey the Mosaic Law. Instead, He daily instructs me to change my nature by revealing in stark contrast the Divine Nature against everything that He marks for change in me. If one has a natural proclivity to commit a certain sin, and that individual is changed by the work of the Holy Spirit so that he or she is no longer tempted to commit that sin, the law regarding that sin is irrelevant to him or her. That is the power of the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. Do you need a law against adultery to constantly remind you when you have no desire for such an activity? The Holy Spirit will not lead us back under laws regarding sins that we no longer are tempted by (and I hope that you can grasp that line of thought). The Mosaic Law had no power to change ones nature, as Paul clearly pointed out. It only revealed the sin with no power to help one change so that he or she is no longer under that bondage of it.

        “8 But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully, 9 knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers, 10 for fornicators, for sodomites, for kidnappers, for liars, for perjurers, and if there is any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine, 11 according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God which was committed to my trust.” (1 Timothy 1:8-11)

        The only way for the law to be used lawfully is for the Holy Spirit to apply it. The Holy Spirit convicts the sinner of his or her sin because sinners remain under the Mosiac Law. They are in danger of the wages of sin under the law of sin and death.

        Finally, anyone indwelt by the Holy Spirit will understand in a much greater measure the righteous nature of God that the Mosaic Law (as a shadow of things to come) attempted to reveal. Although it is possible for one to fall away, such a person has the resident power to conquer sin. The danger in HRM is denying the work of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and reintroducing people to the bondage of the Law of sin and death, and denying them the power to overcome sin. I would not want to stand before God with that stain on my record. It is my hope and prayer that you will take your own advice and study the Scriptures with prayer. I further advise you not to force God’s Word to say what you wish it to say, but to take it as God intended no matter what it challenges in you.

        December 23, 2013 at 6:50 PM Reply
        • Ben #

          I don't know what constitutes a qualified debate, I considered this a discussion and study of what the Bible says… Just like the Bereans… if you do not wish to continue than maybe someone else will fill your spot.

          C.H. Wrote
          "Paul never stated that he was talking about the commandments of men… (In Colossians 2:21)"

          Colossians 2:20-22 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
          21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
          22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?

          C.H. Wrote "Christ fulfilled and therefore made the Mosaic Law old and irrelevant" my question is how do you reconcile that statement with 2Timothy 3:16 which says "
          All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness"..?

          C.H. Wrote " The verse (col 2:14) says nothing about the punishment for transgressing the Mosaic Law. Clearly, you have forced that opinion on the text."
          Col 2:13,14
          13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
          14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

          C.H. wrote "The danger in HRM is denying the work of the atoning sacrifice of Christ, and reintroducing people to the bondage of the Law of sin and death, and denying them the power to overcome sin."

          I can't stress this enough, Christ the Messiah paid my debt and is the ONLY way of salvation! Anything added to His finished work for salvation is in error.
          With any movement there are extremes and fringe movements…. But these are the exceptions not the movement and certainly not what I believe.

          Gods law (instructions) are not a burden. They are holy, righteous and good. 1 John 5:3
          3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

          Prov 1:7
          The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction.

          Psalms 50:16,17
          16 But unto the wicked God saith, What hast thou to do to declare my statutes, or [that] thou shouldest take my covenant in thy mouth?
          17 Seeing thou hatest instruction, and castest my words behind thee.

          Do we keep (protect, guard) His commandments, or should we declare them irrelevant? Selah

          January 9, 2014 at 4:12 AM Reply
          • In my opinion, what constitutes a qualified debate is first that the two opponents are qualified, honest, willing to acknowledge and refute each other’s points, and to refrain from ad hominem. You are right in about this not being a debate in the sense of a true debate. The reason is because you seem incapable or unwilling to properly refute my points. Instead, you ignore them or simply re-post your original positions that I have refuted. You should be aware that this is classic debate trick. It is one of those many tricks that people use to avoid dealing with an opponent’s refutation of their position, and it makes a debate a useless endeavor.

            If you consider this to be a discussion of what the Bible says, then let’s stick to that rule. Let’s take one point at a time and you will realize that you may understand what I mean. Regarding the Apostle Paul’s statement about regulations, he wrote:
            “ Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations— ‘Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle,’ which all concern things which perish with the using—according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh.” (Colossians 2:20-23)

            First, focus on the context of the chapter and this passage. The context of the chapter is the futility of trying to abide by the regulations of the Mosaic Law. The above passage is the culmination of that teaching. The Apostle Paul wrote that the individual who has died with Christ from the basic principles of the world ought not to be subjected to regulations. It does not matter if those regulations come from Buddhism, Islam, or the Mosaic Law. All that any regulation can do is reveal your guilt, but it cannot prevent you from committing the crime. They are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh as Paul pointed out in Romans 6-7 chapters. Have you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world? Then why do want to go back to the regulations of the Mosaic Law as if you have not died? God has given us the Ruler (the Holy Spirit) to replace the rules.

            An example is that childhood prepares us for adulthood. I do not need the rules and regulations of childhood once I have become a mature adult. Instead, I have maturity to guide me with wisdom and knowledge. When I became an adult, I put away childish things.

            Of course, your contention is that Paul did not mean the regulations of the Mosaic Law. This would have Paul supporting the Mosaic Law, the very thing that the Jews hated him for ignoring and teaching against. Even some of the leading Hebrew Roots proponents criticize Paul for not promoting the Mosaic Law. The commandments and doctrines of men require submitting to regulations of the Mosaic Law. God did not include any such commandments and doctrines in the New Testament. Instead, He declares the Mosaic Law was fulfilled by Christ, its regulations were nailed to His cross, and the entire second chapter of Colossians is dedicated to this truth. If you take Colossians 2:20-23 in context, this truth is easily recognized.

            Your task is to refute my position that Colossians 2 is talking about Mosaic Law. I will look forward to your scholarly refutation of the position that Colossians 2 does not refer to the Mosaic Law. If you cannot do that, then there is no sense in going around in circles wasting each other’s time.

            January 18, 2014 at 4:55 AM
          • Red #

            C.H. Fisher#, I'm glad you used the 'childhood' example. Repeating Roy # above, many parents require that children clean their rooms, make up the bed, pick up the toys, hang up their clothes, in order to teach conscientiousness and other virtues. When the child becomes an adult and have moved out of the parents house, then the adult child can let their bedroom be a pigsty. Would the parents prefer that their adult child would follow the pattern that they prefer and taught and thus keep their place 'nice'? The precepts of Abba describe what He is like and what He prefers. We read Torah and the words that we have from Messiah our Righteous King to try to fathom and do what Abba desires.

            January 20, 2014 at 3:26 AM
        • The best translation and study of Colossians 2 that I have ever come across is here: http://lionlove.org/colossians-2-13-17/ It gives a very in-depth, and, in my humble opinion, fair treatment of the text.

          The summary is that these verses are often mistranslated from the Greek, which makes it easy to misunderstand what is being said. Here is his translation:

          "And although you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he quickened [you] together with himself, forgiving us all the trespasses, blotting out the handwriting with the decrees which was against us, which was an adversary to us, and he removed it from the midst, nailing it to the cross. Having spoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them on it. Therefore, do not let any man judge you in eating or in drinking, or in part of a feast, New Moon, or Sabbath (which are a shadow of the coming things), but the body of Christ."

          What was eye-opening for me is that this speaks of the holy days as "a shadow of the coming things" as they are yet completely fulfilled, and none can judge us but the body of Christ, which fits beautifully in with the rest of Colossians concerning the body and God over others.

          Peace.

          January 15, 2014 at 5:12 AM Reply
    • Mary Jane Daigle #

      My son is in this cult. It does no good for any type of discombobulated debate – prayer is the only answer. The Holy Spirit is the only one that can open his eyes. Help me pray for Brian and his family. He believes that he has been called by God to be a prophet and sends witness letters to all our relatives. I told them not to drink the coolaid. So they don't want anything to do with me.

      February 1, 2014 at 7:55 PM Reply
      • I will pray for Brian that the Holy Spirit softens his heart and draws him to the truth. Bless you, Mary Jane.

        February 3, 2014 at 9:20 AM Reply
      • C. H. Fisher #

        My wife and I will pray daily for your son. God can open his eyes to the truth. We must pray that he will be bought to the place where he will be willing to receive it. We will also be praying for you.
        C. H.

        February 4, 2014 at 1:36 PM Reply
      • Thomas C. #

        My wife has fallen victim to this movement as well. I understand your hurt and confusion. I've seen firsthand what this group does to people. The pain it inflicts on the loved ones caught in the middle sometimes feels overwhelming. But, beyond the darkness they spread, there is a brilliant light, and light will always overcome darkness. Have faith in hope.

        Romans 8:24-25
        24 For we are saved by hope: but hope that is seen is not hope: for what a man seeth, why doth he yet hope for?
        25 But if we hope for that we see not, then we do with patience wait for it.

        I will pray that the veil will be lifted and that the perfect truth of scripture will be revealed to your son. Have patience. It will take a long time to loose the grip of this kind of cultism, but it WILL be loosed. God will see to it. I would ask that in the meantime, you say a prayer for my wife as well. Many blessings you and your family. My heart and my prayers go out to you.

        February 19, 2014 at 2:58 PM Reply
  15. My partner and I absolutely love your blog and find nearly
    all of your post's to be exactly I'm looking for. Does one offer guest
    writers to write content for you personally? I wouldn't mind publishing a post or elaborating on a lot of the subjects you write regarding here.
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    December 21, 2013 at 9:25 PM Reply
  16. Ben #

    Since I could not reply to C.H.' s last post, I thought I would just start a new comment.

    Col 2 Starting in vs 3 (God) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
    Prov 1:7"
    The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction." If we revear god, it leads to knowledge, but if we reject His instructions we are a fool… Whose instruction will we follow? Gods or mans? This is the context of the chapter and a major theme of the entire Bible.

    Vs 6
    As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:
    to walk
    to make one's way, progress; to make due use of opportunities
    Hebrew for, to live
    to regulate one's life
    to conduct one's self
    to pass one's life
    Vs7
    Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    And here comes the warning again (along with vs4)
    Vs8
    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Contrasting traditions of men with what Christ taught. Which begs the question what did Christ teach? How did He live? He is our example.

    Vs 14
    Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    What is the handwriting of ordinances? 1: it was against us, and 2: Christ nailed it to the cross.
    Romans 7:12,13
    Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
    Deuteronomy 11:26-28
    Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
    27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
    28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
    Galatians 3:13
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

    It was the CURSE or penalty that Christ nailed to the cross. Like the hymn says " my sin not in part but the whole is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more praise the LORD!!!"

    Vs16
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

    Let no one stop you from eating and drinking what is right, or from keeping the feasts… The opposite (I assume) from how you read it. Did God bless all animals to eat? Did He bless all fluids to drink? Did He eliminate His feasts? All 3 HAVE to be true for your interpretation to be true…. Acts 15:20
    But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

    Don't eat meat that was strangled… Don't drink blood… 2 of the 3 are "restricted" for the gentile believer in this -verse! So I can't eat nor drink whatever I want,… But if we read it as let no one stop you from eating and drinking what is right, or from keeping the feasts it makes perfect sense and there is no contradiction.

    Vs17
    Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

    Things to come. Not all the feasts have been fulfilled. The fall feasts refer to His second coming. They are all profitable for us to remember what Christ did and what He will do.

    Vs20-23
    Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    And finally we have Paul giving the warning yet again. The very same thing that Christ railed against many times (read all of Mark 7)
    (Christ) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    Therefore Colossians 2 is NOT rejecting God law as written down in our Bible by Moses. Such an interpretation has several contradictions (some of which I have pointed out). But Paul, like Christ, was warning against traditions and doctrines of men.

    Grace and peace

    January 21, 2014 at 1:47 AM Reply
    • Red, in other words, you are still a child, need to be taught as a child, constantly need the instructions that a child needs, and intend to remain as such. That is your prerogative. It is my hope that you will eventually realize that ever learning under a schoolmaster, but never coming to knowledge of the truth, is not the path to maturity. Many Jews were raised under the Torah that became vile and perpetrators of great evil in society. Hollywood is abundant with Jews that still cling to the traditions but have no righteousness. There are many people raised in church and raised in good families that have become wonton criminals. The Torah will not save you. Your Savior is Christ Jesus, if you will receive Him. When you receive Him, you will receive the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit will instruct you to put away the childish things, including the old schoolmaster.

      I seldom read the Torah and I have no pigsty in my spirit and do not misunderstand the nature of God. Some of the godliest people I have known seldom read the Torah. We follow a greater and higher Law that dwells in us by the Holy Spirit. No one filled with the Holy Spirit needs the Torah. However, they practice godliness in their pressing toward the mark of the high calling of God in Christ Jesus.

      The Mosaic Law has been fulfilled by Jesus Christ. Insisting that people go back under the Mosaic Law is to lure them away from Christ and His atoning work. To claim that one must have Christ Jesus and the Mosaic Law is to present another Christ Jesus, which is anathema.

      January 22, 2014 at 1:33 AM Reply
      • Red #

        Hi CH
        I'm pretty sure that this debate is fuel to definition problems, here is my definition of Torah, see if you agree or disagree. Our Father has characteristics, many are so high that we can't understand, but He only expects us to understand what we can understand, so carve off a subset of His character that we may be capable of understanding. Second, sin are those thoughts and sections that are contrary yo His character, He just won't be around it so if you have sin, you're outside. Third He gave us the written Torah through Moshe as a gift, it gives precept, ordinances, and narratives to communicate His character, without it, we wouldn't know for sure what is sin and what is not, what makes Him happy and what makes Him angry. Fourth, the Messiah is Echad and has been given authority as the Son of God and Son of Man to tell us about the Fathers' character by properly interpreting the Torah, for example the washing of hands. Fifth, it is clear that Messiah kept the Torah and expected those in His presence on Earth to keep it too. Sixth, when He said, "I did not come to abolish the Torah, but to fulfill" that clearly means to me that Messiah's life reflected The Father's character, probably even aspects that we are incapable of grasping. Seventh, messiah is in Heaven in flesh keeping Torah by serving as High Priest in the Supernal Temple (the Temple on Earth was a shadow of that currently existing Heavenly Temple and is keeping Shabbat there and is keeping the feasts there on the calendar that is in scripture. Ok, this is getting long for a post, I'll stop here, but I can think of a few more… For example in the Millennial Kingdom when He reigns as set apart King, all people will come to Yerusalem yearly for Sukkot Feast of a Tabernacles,…

        January 22, 2014 at 10:17 AM Reply
        • Red #

          I accidentally submitted without proof reading, I am mortified and apologize to you sincerely for all of the errors.

          January 22, 2014 at 10:19 AM Reply
          • Red, I won’t take a shot at you in regard to the typos; we all make them. However, let me address one of your points. You seem to the saying that the Torah/Mosaic Law is necessary to give us a glimpse of the character or nature of God. One could keep all of the ML and never know the divine character and nature of God to the extent that He is revealed by the Holy Spirit. The reason is because, as you correctly stated it, the ML only gives us a glimpse. What you say that we may be incapable of understanding, we now understand through the Holy Spirit. If one is truly redeemed from the darkness, he or she has received the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the Divine Nature of God. He does not stand on the outside with written commandments, rules, regulations, to explain who He is. Instead, He dwells on the inside to reveal God’s nature to us, a stunning contrast to the inefficiency of the ML. If a superior Teacher exists, why turn back to the inferior teacher that has taught as far as it can teach.

            The question before us is as follows. Are we going to be taught by the ML, or the Holy Spirit? It cannot be both since the latter teaches that the former one is no longer eligible. Is anyone brash enough to declare that the ML is a superior teacher to the Holy Spirit? The ML was to teach until Christ. It has done its job. It has nothing to teach about after Christ and God has not ordained it to teach. Instead, He has sent us His Holy Spirit. Anything the ML could teach was derived from the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is the source of the ML, but desires to teach us a greater and higher law and assists us to abide by it. For the ML to do the job, innumerable volumes would have to be added to it. It would be impossible to study and retain all that knowledge. After Christ spoke about fulfilling the ML in Matthew 5:17, He then began to teach a higher Law than the ML (See Matthew 5:17-48). Further, Christ did not tell us to go back under the ML. Instead, He told us to go forward.
            Christ said, “And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever—the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you.” (John 14:16-17)
            Then He said, “But the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, He will teach you all things, and bring to your remembrance all things that I said to you.” (John 14:26)

            Notice what Peter, once the most judaistic of the disciples, writes in this passage.
            “Simon Peter, a bondservant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have obtained like precious faith with us by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ: 2 Grace and peace be multiplied to you in the knowledge of God and of Jesus our Lord, 3 as His divine power has given to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of Him who called us by glory and virtue, 4 by which have been given to us exceedingly great and precious promises, that through these you may be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.” (2 Peter 1:1-4)

            He begins by declaring that faith is by the righteousness of God and Christ Jesus the Savior. This means it does not and cannot come by the Mosaic Law. It is impossible to please God without faith (Hebrews 11:6). Peter declares that grace and peace be multiplied to us in the knowledge of God and Christ. He then declares that the divine power of God has given us all things that pertain to life and godliness through that knowledge of Him. Again the ML is not mentioned or even implied. Finally, he proclaims that God called us by glory and virtue to be partakers of the divine nature.

            This depth of such knowledge of God had never been revealed before.
            7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory. 9 But as it is written: “Eye has not seen, nor ear heard, Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” (2 Corinthians 2:7-9)

            That means that no one under the Law knew or could have known this depth of this wisdom and knowledge. The ML could never have revealed it before the crucifixion, and it most certainly cannot do so afterwards because it was a schoolmaster limited to bringing us to Christ. However, the Holy Spirit reveals the depth of God to those who are truly His people.
            10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. (2 Corinthians 2:10-13)

            The ML does not search the deep things of God. It keeps individuals bound under a limited degree of knowledge that can never fully express the divine character and nature of God. Ritual washing of hands, abstaining from certain foods, wearing yarmulkes, and all of the other rules and regulations have a show of wisdom in will-worship (Colossians 2:23), but they do not reveal the depth of God’s nature. An example would be that of a medical student insisting on studying medical books written in 1600 (AD) instead of being taught by a current skilled and famous surgeon. Why would I want to study the nature of God through the Torah when God with His nature resides in me?

            Because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit—who is God, the Divine Nature, the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Teacher, the Guide, the Comforter—I can know instantly if I am about to offend the nature of God. I don’t have to find a Torah, search diligently through its pages, or memorize all the things that might displease Him. And that is the key to why people want to go back under the ML. Some people love the ML because it makes them feel righteous, as if they have accomplished something by their rituals and rule/regulation-keeping. They spurn the thought of being completely obedient to God and under the constant guidance of the Holy Spirit. They reject the commitment, the full surrender to God’s will. Under the ML one will live an inferior life with less accountability, less spirituality and little or no intimacy with God.

            The Holy Spirit will reveal things in the human nature that are not revealed in the ML but are against the nature of God. For example, the Holy Spirit might want me to cease doing something that I was never convicted of doing before. He may dictate how He wishes me to spend my money, or to use my time, or to go somewhere, say something, or do something that I would find no command or guidance for in the ML. The Holy Spirit draws me into God’s presence in a way that the ML could never do. I don’t come into the Holiest of All through the ML, but through the veil of Christ’s body. As a follower of Christ Jesus, filled with the Holy Spirit, I am not my own. I was bought by God with the blood of Christ. I must glorify God with all that I have and all that I do. If He points out something that offends Him, I have to repent and obey or experience His conviction and chastisement.
            19 Or do you not know that your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own? 20 For you were bought at a price; therefore glorify God in your body and in your spirit, which are God’s. (1 Corinthians 6:19-20)

            You correctly wrote that Christ did not come to destroy the Mosaic Law, but to fulfill it, which He did. When it was fulfilled, it faded away (Hebrews 8:13) for all who are under the New Covenant. God established a new and higher Law (Hebrews 8:10-11). There was a Holiest of All on earth, but it was patterned after a superior Holiest of All in heaven. The ML was God’s law on earth, but the spiritually greater and higher law that it was patterned after has come to dwell in mankind. No one needs to teach us what to do in order to please God. We do not need the ML, or a priest, rabbi, or some HRM teacher, to teach us how to please God. I am taught as all true Christians are taught, by the Holy Spirit (1 John 2:27). He teaches all true Christians what the ML can never teach. The evidence is in the fact that HRM proponents reject the Holy Spirit, the Teacher, and run back to the partial and archaic ML. It can only teach them that which leads to Christ, but they see Him and yet turn back to be taught again and again without coming to knowledge of the truth.

            January 22, 2014 at 2:57 PM
          • Red #

            CH it will take awhile to reply to all the various points in your long reply, and I may not have time until Friday. But in general, of course I agree with what you say about listening to the Holy Spirit and following His lead. Of course I add Torah (TNK and Brit Chadesha) as a source too of understanding our Fathers will for me, both are needed, the Spirit speaks through the scriptures. You seem to suggest that Peter rejected his Jewish faith, I don't see that in the scripture or historical record. He kept Shabbat and the feasts and went to Temple too. In fact I'm pretty sure they all thought that Y'shua was returning on the first Feast of Trumpets after the crucifixition. After all, he gave His life on Passover, and the Holy Spirit came on Pentecost (the feast of Shavuot) so they were ready for Him to return as King, and He will some day, probably on the Feast of Trumpets. That's why the feasts are there, as a foreshadow year to year and generation to generation, to point to Messiah. “Then everyone who survives of all the nations that have come against Jerusalem shall go up year after year to worship the King, the Lord of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Booths"- Zechariah 14

            January 22, 2014 at 5:38 PM
      • Red #

        CH # The flow of the blog comments is getting complex to follow, I think I am replying to the right piece of our conversation flow.

        This is a comment about the Holy Spirit (Ruach Hakodesh) and the place of the "Old Testament", the TNK (Torah, Prophet, and Psalms) because you seem to say that you discount it and rely only on the Holy Spirit and only read the "New Testament" (the record of the eye witnesses).

        First I point to the road to Emmaus where He revealed Himself in the TNK, "beginning with Moses and all the Prophets, He explained to them what was said in all the Scriptures concerning Himself"

        and next to 2 Cor 3:14-18 where Rabbi Shaul/Paul plainly says that it is the Holy Spirit Who reveals Messiah Y'shua (Jesus Christ) in the "Old testament"
        14 But their minds were hardened, for to this day, when the old covenant is being read, that same veil remains, not lifted, because in Messiah it is taken away.

        15 But to this day, when Mosheh is being read, a veil lies on their heart.

        16 And when one turns to the Master, the veil is taken away.

        17 Now יהוה is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of יהוה is, there is freedom.

        18 And we all, as with unveiled face we see as in a mirror the esteem of יהוה, are being transformed into the same likeness from esteem to esteem, as from יהוה, the Spirit.

        January 23, 2014 at 1:19 AM Reply
        • Red:
          First, the fact that Christ began with Moses and explained in the Scriptures about Himself does not establish a requirement to submit to the Mosaic Law. Christ taught them a history lesson, which is compatible with what I stated about the OT being a history book to a great degree. I have read and occasionally read from Genesis to Malachi. I still find relevancy in the prophecies, especially in Daniel and elsewhere that pertain to eschatology. However, it does not make a case for submission to the Mosaic Law. The same goes for 2 Corinthians 3:14-18.

          However, Paul explains in 2 Corinthians 3:14 & 16 that the veil is taken away in Christ. He explains that where the Spirit of the Lord there is liberty, exactly what I have been saying. He goes on to say that we are transformed, not by the ML, but by understanding what the ML taught, namely that there is liberty in Christ. We are transformed by the Spirit into the image of Christ, exactly what I have been saying (2Corinthians 3:18). Therefore, by posting that passage you have validated my position.

          January 23, 2014 at 6:18 AM Reply
  17. Ben, your attempts to refute my position come up short. First, you quote Proverbs 1:7 and then make the following statement.

    “If we revear god, it leads to knowledge, but if we reject His instructions we are a fool… Whose instruction will we follow? Gods or mans? This is the context of the chapter and a major theme of the entire Bible.”

    Do you not realize that you condemn your own position with that verse and statement? There is evidence that you ignore a huge portion of the New Testament that declares the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled and is no longer applicable to Christians. Additionally, you attempt to convert the New Testament to HRM doctrine with scriptures that are irrelevant because they pertain to the Mosaic Law, such as Deuteronomy 11:26-28. When you attempt to defend your position by using New Testament scriptures, your doctrine becomes unraveled. Consider that you posted the following verse out of context to defend your position.

    Colossians 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

    Here it is in context: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Colossians 2:8-10)

    Recognize that the Apostle Paul uses the phrase, “not according to Christ.” He does not say, “not according to the Mosaic Law.” The verses 9 & 10 say it all. True salvation is according to Christ. The HRM rejects that truth by presenting Christ and the Mosaic Law. However, Christ alone is the essence of the true Gospel. I am complete in Him and thus do not need the Mosaic Law (which the Perfect Lamb fulfilled with His shed blood). God replaced it with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit.

    Then, amazingly, you post Galatians 3:13 (again, out of context ), which makes my point. Here it is in context.
    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-13)

    Galatians 3 is a crushing defeat of the HRM doctrine. It also explains what the Apostle Paul meant in Colossians 2:14. Christ redeemed us from having to do the works of the law, thus from the burden, curse, and penalty of it. Therefore, even Gentiles can have the blessing of Abraham, although they do not the works of the Law. As I have repeatedly stated, you quote verses out of context to support your position. It is evidence of approaching God’s word, not searching for truth, but for support of doctrine. This is what I call honoring doctrine more than truth.

    Next, you present a bizarre interpretation of Colossians 2:16 (posted out of context).
    You wrote: “Let no one stop you from eating and drinking what is right, or from keeping the feasts… The opposite (I assume) from how you read it.”

    The opposite is, as you stated, from how you read it. I choose to read it in context as the Lord God requires. Here it is in context.
    16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

    Those things (which pertain to the Mosaic Law) are a shadow. The substance (shadows have no substance) is of Christ, not the Mosaic Law. Paul was always pointing people away from the Mosaic Law and unto Christ. Further, you quote Acts 15:20 out of context. The reason the elders in Jerusalem made those stipulations was because they wanted to reach the Jews. This is evident in next verse.
    21 “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” ( also see 1 Corinthians 8:1-12)

    Peter made a strong defense against imposing the Law upon them. “10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (Acts 15:10-11)

    You quote other verses that defeat your position, especially when taken in context. You attempt to appropriate them by quoting where Christ exposed the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders. That passage has no relevance to this debate/discussion. You seem incapable of understanding what it means to have died with Christ. If I have died with Christ, then my life is hidden with Christ in God. The Mosaic Law required death, and Christ died. I died with Him. Therefore, the Mosaic Law has no relevancy to my life. I am now under a spiritual Law, the Holy Spirit. Colossians 3 (and it would be helpful to ignore the chapter markings when reading Colossians) reveals the nature of a life hidden with Christ in God. Paul makes no references to the Mosaic Law, having denounced it in the previous chapters. In fact, the entirety of Colossians is about the work of Christ being superior to the work of the Mosaic Law.
    Consider the following from the 1st chapter.
    19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Colossians 1-19-23)

    If you insist on taking verses out of context, in quoting the Law to defend the Law, and ignore the abundance of the Scriptures against your position, no amount of truth can convince you otherwise. The fact is that the HRM lures people away from Christ and into bondage that was meant for sinners (1 Timothy 1:9). HRM doctrine is a work of man. It is an attempt to defeat the gospel of Christ Jesus by refuting His atonement. One may deny this truth by claiming that there is a christ involved in the HRM doctrine. However, it is a false christ, one that neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament presents, i.e. a christ without atonement. If Christ is presented with the HRM doctrine, it constitutes another christ that the New Testament does not present. It is, in fact, moving people away from the hope of the Gospel. Half Mosaic Law and half Gospel is the same as no Gospel. God moved us from the old to the new, from that which is stale and faded away to that which is fresh and vibrant. Satan will convince people to use whatever means to defeat the Gospel of Christ Jesus. It is inevitable that the works of darkness that came against the Apostle Paul would also come against those who are Christ’s today. In this period of great and final deception, many are falling victim to numerous heresies. Only love for truth can prevent deception. Reject it, and only delusion and eternal damnation awaits.

    Instead of manipulating God’s word in an effort to prove your doctrine, why not just take your own advice. Here it is just as you wrote it.
    “If we revear god (sic), it leads to knowledge, but if we reject His instructions we are a fool… Whose instruction will we follow? Gods or mans? This is the context of the chapter and a major theme of the entire Bible.”

    January 22, 2014 at 3:53 AM Reply
    • Red #

      C.H. He said, "If you love Me, keep My commandments." That's primarily Torah, no New Testament books had been written at that point. To the young man who came to Him and said, "I have diligently kept the commandments (law, mitvot, precepts) since my youth, He looked at the young nan and loved him.

      January 22, 2014 at 9:37 AM Reply
      • Red, what matters is what Christ accomplished by His atonement, and God's complete word in the New Testament. Go back under the schoolmaster (Mosaic Law) and you are in effect denying that work.

        January 22, 2014 at 9:58 AM Reply
        • Red #

          Right, Messiah first, He is El! Hallelujah! But He said, "if you love me, then keep My _?__". If He came to abolish Torah, this would be a big deal for Jews in the first century so He would have said it plainly, but He said the opposite, "I did not come to abolish Torah". Keeping Torah is NOT about salvation then, it is about doing what He asks . Let me ask you straight, I am sure that if He asks you to do something, you would do everything in your power to do it because you love Him. So the only catch is how can you know and be sure of what he wants you to do?

          January 22, 2014 at 1:34 PM Reply
          • The answer to your question is simple and I am surprised that you asked it. The answer is because I have the Holy Spirit, the Divine Nature, the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, the one Who is the source of the Mosaic Law, residing in me. Let me ask you a question, would you rather have an antiquated book teach you, or the source of the book living inside of you? Another question. Would you rather have something of God in part, or the fulness of it?

            January 22, 2014 at 2:53 PM
    • Ben #

      C.H you continue to reject the OT? Consider:
      John 5:
      44 How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that [cometh] from God only?
      45 Do not think that I will accuse you to the Father: there is [one] that accuseth you, [even] Moses, in whom ye trust.
      46 For had ye believed Moses, ye would have believed me: for he wrote of me.
      47 But if ye believe not his writings, how shall ye believe my words?

      2 Timothy 3:
      14 But continue thou in the things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of, knowing of whom thou hast learned [them];
      15 And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.
      16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:
      17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

      1 John 5:
      2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
      3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

      1 John 2:
      3 And hereby we do know that we know him, if we keep his commandments.
      4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.
      5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in him.
      6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

      2 Peter 3:
      15 And account [that] the longsuffering of our Lord [is] salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
      16 As also in all [his] epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as [they do] also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.
      17 Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know [these things] before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.
      18 But grow in grace, and [in] the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him [be] glory both now and for ever. Amen.

      James 1:
      21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
      22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
      23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
      24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
      25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth [therein], he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

      The fourth edition of the United Bible Societies' Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2, 309 allusions and verbal parallels. The books most used are Psalms (79 quotations, 333 allusions), and Isaiah (66 quotations, 348 allusions). In the Book of Revelation, there are no formal quotations at all, but no fewer than 620 allusions.

      Man shall not live on bread alone, but by EVERY word that God spoke… -God (via Moses) -Christ

      The point is summed up in Paul letter to Timothy. The entire bible is profitable for our instruction of what is right, correction, teaching, and reproof… How can you say that it is "no longer applicable?"

      If we can't agree that the entire Bible is for Doctrine, then we are worlds apart and any dialogue is futile…
      I pray that you reconsider your position.

      January 23, 2014 at 2:32 AM Reply
      • Ben,

        You incorrectly state that I reject the Old Testament, which I have never done. Then you post a number of New Testament verses in an effort to validate your point. Why didn’t you post Old Testament verses if you believe that it is more relevant? Further, none of the verses that you posted require a Christian to re-submit to the Mosaic Law. You confuse the word “scriptures” with “Mosaic Law” and thus attempt to prove what is not there. You also regard every mention of the term “law” as the Mosaic Law with all its rules and regulations. However, neither the Apostle Paul nor any of the other writers of the New Testament explicitly denied the Atonement and told the believers to re-submit to the Mosaic Law. They would be denying what they knew without a shadow of doubt, that Christ the perfect sacrifice fulfilled the ML. The burden is upon you to prove otherwise. The fact is that you cannot do so because it is not explicitly stated or even implied in the New Testament.

        I completely agree with the Old Testament. It declared that the Christ would come and many other things about Him. I agree with the prophets. I read the portions of the O.T. However, the prophet Jeremiah 31:31-34 prophesied of the new covenant. Hebrews 8:7-13 declares the fulfilling of that prophecy. The Apostle Paul declares that Christ has fulfilled the Mosaic Law. Therefore, I do not need to read, memorize, and re-submit myself that part of the O.T. You take my position on that issue and declare that I reject the O.T. In the O.T., prophets spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit about grace.
        10 Of this salvation the prophets have inquired and searched carefully, who prophesied of the grace that would come to you, 11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. 12 To them it was revealed that, not to themselves, but to us they were ministering the things which now have been reported to you through those who have preached the gospel to you by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven—things which angels desire to look into. (1 Peter 1:10-12)
        That grace has come. The Christ they prophesied about has come. The Gospel has been preached and continues to be preached by the Holy Spirit sent from heaven through godly men. Paul declared that anyone preaching another gospel than what he preached let him be accursed. (Galatians 1: 6-9) That Gospel is that Christ has atoned for our sins, fulfilled the Mosaic Law, and delivered us from its rules and regulations. This is abundantly clear in the rest of Galatians.
        Therefore, I have not rejected the O.T. Instead, I agree with it that Christ would bring grace and atonement for our sins (Isaiah 53). I disagree with the HRM heresy that Christ did not fulfill the Mosaic Law as the perfect Lamb that atoned for our sins, and therefore we remain under the ML. The law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Now we have Christ we are no longer under the schoolmaster. The N.T is replete with references to this fact. The O.T. is not. Therefore, it is better for your doctrine that you dwell in the O.T. and better for my beliefs if I am partial to the N.T. But do I reject the O.T.? No, I just don’t dwell on the parts that have been fulfilled.

        January 28, 2014 at 7:00 PM Reply
        • Ben #

          Please help me follow your line of thought… i quote OT verses and here is your response…
          If you insist on taking verses out of context, in quoting the Law to defend the Law, and ignore the abundance of the Scriptures against your position, no amount of truth can convince you otherwise.
          So I point out that the OT and NT both say the same thing and i then quote NT verses, and you respond with … Then you post a number of New Testament verses in an effort to validate your point. Why didn’t you post Old Testament verses if you believe that it is more relevant?

          Instead of answering the difficult aspects of your interpretation (that I already pointed out) you avoid the question with one of your "debate tricks" as you call them. You have not yet clarified ANY of the logical inconsistencies in your doctrine.

          Next you write
          …"You incorrectly state that I reject the Old Testament, which I have never done. " and yet you said
          "Therefore, the Mosaic Law has no relevancy to my life. I am now under a spiritual Law, the Holy Spirit…. Paul makes no references to the Mosaic Law, having denounced it in the previous chapters."

          The "mosaic law" as you call it makes up most of the first five books of the OT and was given by GOD. These same "Mosaic laws" as you call them are included in Paul's letter to Timothy when he wrote
          "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

          How then can you say he denounces them? How can you say they have no relevancy to my life? It is inconsistencies like these that you must address.

          Read Psalms 119 the longest chapter in the whole Bible written by David who was called a man after God's own heart.
          Here are just a few of the 176 verses for us to meditate upon.

          Blessed [are] the undefiled in the way, who walk in the law of the LORD.

          Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

          For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven.

          O how love I thy law! it [is] my meditation all the day.

          I have not departed from thy judgments: for thou hast taught me.

          I have longed for thy salvation, O LORD; AND thy law [is] my delight.

          My tongue shall speak of thy word: for all thy commandments [are] righteousness.

          Thy word [is] true [from] the beginning: and every one of thy righteous judgments [endureth] for ever.

          Amen and Amen!

          P.s. I have not rejected the atonement of Christ, and yet I do love the instructions, commandments, statutes, precepts, judgements, and testimonies of The most high God! They are not mutually exclusive. Selah…

          Shalom

          February 3, 2014 at 7:45 PM Reply
          • C. H. Fisher #

            Ben, On your first point, I didn’t post O.T. verses because I do not believe that they are more relevant.

            On your second point, I repeat that I do not reject the Old Testament. Believing that the Mosaic Law is fulfilled is not a rejection of the Old Testament. Instead, it is an acceptance of it. The “aspect” of my “interpretation”, as you put it, are not difficult unless you consider the words of the Apostle Paul difficult. I am consistent in what I post to the point of redundancy. If the ML is fulfilled, it does not have relevancy to my life. It is active for sinners that have not accepted the atonement of Christ. Individuals that profess faith in Christ, and return to the ML, are denying the Atonement by which they were sanctified.

            Your point on Pslams 119 has no relevancy to the topic. It was written by one that was under the ML.

            My position is that the Atonement of Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law (the Law of sin and death). By surrendering to the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, I have been delivered from the ML. The Law of the Holy Spirit is far superior to the ML (See Matthew chapter 5 through 7). It is that higher Law of the Holy Spirit, not the Mosaic Law, which Christians must obey or else be brought back into bondage with sinners. You cannot please God through the ML. You must please Him by faith in Christ Jesus. You must pass through His flesh into the Holiest of All. If you wish for an animal to do that for you, it will not be accepted. That position is consistent with a huge section of the New Testament.

            Now it is your turn. Please answer the following question.
            The law that we abide by must exceed the righteousness of the Pharisees, and they lived by the ML. Which is the greater and higher law?

            “You shall not commit adultery” (Exodus 20:14) “Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28).

            Even though the first one is lesser to the second one, you claim that the first one is valid and argue with those who choose the second. Paul taught the second one, as he had received it from Christ personally and not from man (the ML via man) [Galatians 1:12]. You incorrectly believe that the Mosaic Law is superior and thus accept the righteousness of the Pharisees as valid for salvation. Explain why you reject the Holy Spirit in favor of the Mosaic Law. If you do not reject the Holy Spirit, then explain why you cling to the Mosaic Law when the One who sent it has come and made Himself available to dwell in us, to teach us all things, greater and higher things superior to the ML. Please correct me if I misunderstood you.

            February 4, 2014 at 5:37 PM
          • Ben #

            Again I don't think you reconciled yor statements like "If the ML is fulfilled, it does not have relevancy to my life. " with 2Timothy 3:16
            "All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:"

            This is the heart of the issue. Paul tells Timothy that it is profitable, and you say it is irrelevant. You must admit this is a contradiction. Please reconcile these two thoughts. And or explain how I might be incorrectly restating your position.

            Next, to clear up another misunderstanding, we are saved by faith in Christ alone. Nothing else needed, required, or added period. I hope you can understand that I agree with you that salvation is by grace not works, always has been, always will be. Nobody has ever been saved by their own merrit. That being said, can you please stop using the argument that I am trying to earn my salvation? We are in agreement :-).

            The issue at hand is not about salvation. Our death penalty was paid in full by Christ. What then? Shall we continue in Sin that Grace may abound? May it never be! The question becomes what is Sin? And I believe that this is the very center of our discussion.
            You believe that God made up rules and gave them through Moses. Then He voided out those rules and gave us new ones. (Does that sound about right?)
            I am saying that God gave us Truth (Psalms 119:142
            "Thy righteousness [is] an everlasting righteousness, and thy law [is] the truth.")
            I believe that his Law is for our good, and a blessing for us, but a curse if we break/reject it. Christ became the curse for us! Amen? So now what? How shall we live? Holy living…

            To answer your question to me, No I don't believe that the "ML" is superior to a "new law" presented in the NT. They are one in the same. If you don't think so, then we have a few more issues that you will have to explain such as Deu 4:2 "Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you."
            And Deu 13:3,4
            "Thou shalt not hearken unto the words of that prophet, or that dreamer of dreams: for the LORD your God proveth you, to know whether ye love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
            Ye shall walk after the LORD your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him."

            If you are saying that Christ added to the law or spoke of a different law, we now have a contradiction and we also have Christ breaking the law. But if Christ was clarifying what the law meant which is consistent with Deu 18:16-18
            "According to all that thou desiredst of the LORD thy God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.
            And the LORD said unto me, They have well [spoken that] which they have spoken.
            I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him."
            And this is exactly what the woman at the well was expecting in John 4:25
            "The woman saith unto him, I know that Messias cometh, which is called Christ: when he is come, he will tell us all things."

            Christ came to teach the Truth, by word and by action. Then He died to pay the price of our disobedience. Now we are free to walk humbly with our God! 1 John 1:6,7
            "If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
            But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."

            The Pharisees did NOT live by the "ML", but rejected it in favor of their own traditions (read mark 7).

            -Shalom

            February 5, 2014 at 9:15 PM
          • C. H. Fisher #

            Ben, I’ll put this as clearly as I know how. If you cannot understand it, then I have nothing more that I can say to you. The Mosaic Law is a term that defines God’s law that He gave Moses along with didactic rules and regulations. It is a reflection of His divine nature and His will for how Israel should live on this earth. The ML was sent to teach Israel about sin, and the penalty for sin. The dietary requirements and other regulations are didactic. The ML is the law of sin and death. It exposes sin just as law in the secular realm exposes crime. The ML required a penalty for sin, which is death. Either the sinner or a substitute had to die. A lamb was offered as atonement for sin, but the fact that one had to be offered repeatedly means it wasn’t a perfect lamb. However, under the Old Covenant, the lamb was accepted.

            When Christ, the perfect Lamb, was sacrificed for the sins of the world, the ML’s requirement for a perfect lamb was met. No other lamb can be offered. Thus it was fulfilled. Therefore, God established a New Covenant and sent His law, not through Moses, but in the person of the Holy Spirit. It (He, the Holy Spirit) is a higher and purer form of the law because it is not simply a reflection of God’s divine nature. He is God’s Divine Nature living in those who are in Christ.

            Therefore, I do not need to read and study the Torah and resubmit to the didactic rules and regulations of the ML that Christ nailed to His cross. The reason is because the ML was a tutor to lead us to Christ. Christ has come, so we no longer need the tutor. The Holy Spirit is now the Tutor that I now learn by. He does not use the elementary didactic method of dietary rules and other regulations to teach me. He teaches in a personal and clear manner through imparting His fruit, through God’s word, and with conviction and chastisement. His teaching leads me into a deep and intimate relationship with God the Father that the ML could never accomplish.

            You wrote: “You believe that God made up rules and gave them through Moses. Then He voided out those rules and gave us new ones. (Does that sound about right?)”
            No, that is completely incorrect. I have repeatedly declared with precise consistency that Christ Jesus fulfilled the Mosaic Law. God did not make up rules and give them through Moses; God gave His law along with the didactic rules and regulations to Moses. When the ML was fulfilled, it is no longer relevant to those who are in Christ. Sinners remain under the ML because they reject the Atonement. Not one jot or tittle will be removed from it until all is fulfilled. The Atonement fulfilled the ML, so true Christians are not under the didactic rules and regulations. The old contract/ covenant is fulfilled, and a new contract/covenant is in force. The didactic rules and regulations were part of the old contract/covenant. The new covenant does not contain the didactic rules and regulations and they are not needed. That does not mean that we are not under any law. We are still under God’s law as imparted to us by the Holy Spirit. The law recorded by Moses is a reflection; the Holy Spirit is the source of that reflection.

            Finally, quoting Deuteronomy is irrelevant to this discussion since it concerns the old law. You post 2Timothy 3:16 to defend your use of the Old Testament to refute New Testament theology. I believe that is the heart of our differences. Imagine if one were to take literally every scripture in the O.T. regardless of what the N. T. said. You cannot pick and choose at will. “Whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (Matthew 5:28), is not in the O.T. By your interpretational standards, you ought to reject it and many of the other words of Christ and the Apostle Paul. Is that why we are having this debate?

            In conclusion, if you want to abide God’s law in the Ten Commandments, I am with you all the way. If you want to abide by the rest of the ML, the didactic rules and other regulations as a manner of health or preference, I have no problem with that either. However, if you want to make those didactic rules and regulations a requirement for Christians, then you are committing heresy and denying the Atonement. I’ll leave it up to you as to explain how you believe. This debate is about the Hebrew Roots Movement, which is a heretical religion that denies the Atonement of Christ by insisting Christians are subject to the Mosaic Law. We are subject to God’s law, which is contained in the Mosaic Law, but we are indwelt by the divine nature, the Holy Spirit, and thus have the source of the exact same law as Moses recorded dwelling in us.

            February 6, 2014 at 6:37 PM
  18. In Colossians Paul uses the theme of the body of believers as the body of Christ, making a connection between what happens to us happens to Christ.

    1:24: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions."

    2:18-19: "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God."

    Just before this is 2:16 where Paul is encouraging them to take part in the feasts and to not let anyone judge them but the body. A more accurate translation of Colossians 2:13-17:

    "And although you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he quickened [you] together with himself, forgiving us all the trespasses, blotting out the handwriting with the decrees which was against us, which was an adversary to us, and he removed it from the midst, nailing it to the cross. Having spoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them on it. Therefore, do not let any man judge you in eating or in drinking, or in part of a feast, New Moon, or Sabbath (which are a shadow of the coming things), but the body of Christ."

    See my post up above for a link to a scholarly explanation of this translation.

    You quote 1 Timothy 1:9 but don't seem to mention that it says the law is for the lawless. If you are not following the law, doesn't that make you lawless? Unfortunately I think your understanding of the Mosaic law is more in line with modern thinking than Christ. The Messiah showed us how to spiritually follow the law and not get carried away with the traditions of men. The law, the Mosaic law as you call it, is spiritual and holy. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Yes, Jesus did rescue us from the curse of the law (referencing Galatians), but that does not mean everyone has the life. You can be rescued from sin and the curse of the law by Christ, then turn around and give yourself back to sin and not inherit the kingdom. See 1 Corinthians 10; Hebrews 3; Jude 1. Sin is lawlessness. Jesus taught against lawlessness over and over, even prophetically. See Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41; Matthew 24:12, and more in Revelations 12:17 and Revelations 14:12.

    The biggest impact this had at the time was opening the door for Gentiles. A lot of Paul's writings are contesting the traditions of the elder Jews in separating themselves from the Gentiles. He was not doing away with the law, but rather he was bringing the Gentiles into the fold against the rules of the religious authorities.

    January 22, 2014 at 5:49 AM Reply
    • 16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

      The correct interpretation of this passage is clear when the entire chapter is taken together. The Apostle Paul is telling the church at Colosse or Colossi that they should not submit to individuals that judge them by Jewish traditions concerning food or drink, festivals, a new moon, or Sabbath days. The Jewish leaders required people to keep certain festivals, new moon, and Sabbaths according to Ezekiel 45:17 (also in the 46th chapter). Many Gentile and Jewish Christians did not observe any of those events. The reason is that many of the Jewish rituals and festivals encouraged the participants to hope for the coming of the Messiah. Since Christians believed the Messiah had already come, they could not denounce their belief by participating. Second, the Jewish rituals and regulations were meant to set them apart from non-Jews. Paul was attempting to unite them in Christ.

      Some of the Jewish Christians were requiring that the Gentiles convert to Judaism before they could become Christians (Acts 15:1-2); much as the HRM is insisting today. Paul rejected that demand. Therefore, to declare that Paul was telling them to keep those rituals and regulations when it is abundantly clear in the N.T. that he taught otherwise is a misinterpretation of the text.

      And certain men came down from Judea and taught the brethren, “Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved.” 2 Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question. (Acts 15:1-2)

      14 But when I saw that they were not straightforward about the truth of the gospel, I said to Peter before them all, “If you, being a Jew, live in the manner of Gentiles and not as the Jews, why do you[b] compel Gentiles to live as Jews?[c] 15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” (Galatians 2:14-21)

      January 22, 2014 at 5:13 PM Reply
      • The Bible makes a rather clear distinction between being saved from sin, and inheriting the kingdom. They are related to one another in the sense that you cannot inherit the kingdom without being saved, but they are not the same. You can be saved from sin by the blood of the Messiah, yet still not inherit the kingdom. See Hebrews 3 and 1 Corinthians 10.

        In the Bible it is compared to the Jews leaving Egypt with Moses then being destroyed in the desert for their transgressions. They were rescued from bondage, yet were not living lives pleasing to God so they did not make it to the promised land. It sounds like you are mixing these two into one.

        The law does not save. The Bible says this. You say this. I say this. We all agree.

        The difference now is that we are rescued from bondage by Christ, but we still must live a life pleasing to God. The question then should be: Does the law play any part in inheriting the kingdom? It does. The Bible says this, many places. I say this. What say you?

        I'm not saying it is the primary part. It is the Holy Spirit that must guide us to love, as that is the only way we can fulfill the law. The Messiah must reside within. It is not the law, it is the Messiah. But the Messiah points to the law.

        Both Acts 15 and Galatians 2 talk about this initial saving, and what it takes for Gentiles and Jews to be united. I think we all agree following the entire law is not required. Even so, Galatians 2:17-18 says we should go back to being transgressors, which in context appears to be of the law. Christ is not a minister of sin. How do you look past that?

        Unfortunately your translation of Colossians is wrong, partly blatantly so: "but the body of Christ" is the literal translation of the end of that verse. Anything else is changing the meaning by adding words that aren't there.

        It doesn't read "in food" or "in drink". The Greek there literally speaks of the act of drinking and the act of eating. To translate it otherwise is to be interpreting from a biased position. Why is this important? Colossians is in part about countering those who were trying to find holiness in abstinence, even from God's appointed feasts. Sabbaths and New Moons were also times of feasting (remember King Saul eating at the table when David was hiding during the new moon?)

        I posted a link to a great article which goes into detail about the Colossians 2:13-17 translation issue. Please, read that article before continuing to use mistranslations as a reference.

        Lastly, even in the bad translation you post it says "which are a shadow of things to come". Future tense at the time of writing. More was to come, based on the holy days, even when he wrote that.

        I appreciate your response. I know how hard it can be to respond to these long posts with many points. I'm glad you even responded to a few. I understand your position. I was raised in it for many years. I had many of these exact same questions. It was hard to make sense of the seemingly contradictory statements by Paul (Romans 6-8 took a while especially). I think a problem is that I was taught it was either the law or Christ, as though they were mutually exclusive. Now I understand Paul to be saying they are both important, but adamantly declaring the the Messiah comes first. If you study the 1st century Jewish culture, you will learn that the priority of the laws was a huge topic of debate. For example, if you needed to do some work to honor your parents on the Sabbath, what do you do? Or rescue an animal on the Sabbath, as an example from the Bible.

        That's how Paul can say "by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified" then immediately follow it with "But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor."

        It is how Paul can say in Romans 7 "for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me" and in the very next words say "So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good" If they are mutually exclusive, the many examples like these don't make sense.

        January 22, 2014 at 7:07 PM Reply
        • PaulO:
          In the first part of your post, you declare that salvation by the blood of Christ Jesus is not enough to inherit the kingdom of God. This is another “gospel” that the Apostle Paul referred to and called anathema. Anyone that has the blood of Christ applied to their sins is forgiven and has eternal life. Anyone that rejects His atonement is unforgiven and remains under the Mosaic Law. Willful rejection of the Holy Spirit who teaches us to live righteously is a rejection of Christ and His atonement.
          “Brethren, my heart’s desire and prayer to God for Israel is that they may be saved. 2 For I bear them witness that they have a zeal for God, but not according to knowledge. 3 For they being ignorant of God’s righteousness, and seeking to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted to the righteousness of God. 4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes.” (Romans 10:1-4)

          26 For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The LORD will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. (Hebrews 10:26-31)

          You unjustly and without a hint of evidence accuse me of mixing deliverance from bondage with not living a life pleasing to God. I ask you to please retract that statement. No one who has ever read anything I have written on this forum or over the past decades could possibly come up with that conclusion. You are doing with my statements what you do to the Scriptures. I teach and preach righteousness, a higher degree of submission and obedience to God than the Mosaic Law could ever produce because it worked through the flesh.

          Of course one must live a life pleasing to God, but we disagree on how to achieve that goal. You insist that one must go back under the ML (which failed to accomplish that purpose in its time Galatians 3:10) after salvation to please God. God says that we must receive the Holy Spirit, the superior Law, and obey Him.
          3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:3-4)

          When one is saved by the blood of Christ, one receives the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. From that point on, the Divine Nature resides in the true Christian. Anything that the ML could teach us resides in great and more brilliant clarity and force in the Holy Spirit. Further, Christ does not point us to the ML. All references that you post are before the Atonement. You attempt to fit them into New Testament theology. It forces you to take bits of scripture out of context, add opinions and other extrabiblical data, and manipulate them to force God’s word to say what it clearly does not say. The preponderance of the New Testament scriptures are clearly against your position. What the ML presents symbolically, the Holy Spirit presents in supernatural resonance of the true and original. The Holiest of All on earth was a pattern of the Holiest of All in heaven. When God tore the veil over the holiest of All on earth, He signified that it was no longer relevant. The sacrificial sheep were antitypes of the Perfect Lamb that has now come and given His life. Now that the Perfect Lamb has been sacrificed, there is no need to return to sacrificing sheep. The ML was an antitype of the Holy Spirit. Now that the Holy Spirit has come, there is no need to return to the ML.

          Was the Holiest of All on earth bad because it has been replaced with the Holiest of All in heaven? Were the sacrificial sheep bad because they were replaced with Christ the Perfect Lamb? Was the ML bad because it has been replaced with the Holy Spirit? Not so. All those things were good for their time and purpose. They are no longer relevant for the true Christian because they have been replaced with the originals from which they were copied. You could obey every jot and tittle of the ML and not achieve the degree of godliness that one will achieve with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. Further, you will never please God by submitting to the ML. Additionally, you cannot force the Holy Spirit into the role of directing us back the ML since it is the teacher that He produced. We are to be taught and guided by the Teacher, not a teacher.

          Your loose interpretation of Acts 15 and Galatians 2 is also in error. You have no qualifying scriptures for such a conclusion; it is merely an opinion. This practice is common to people that read and study God’s word to find support for doctrine rather than seeking for truth.

          You are also wrong to imply that my responses are the questions of someone who is confused and seeking answers. Nothing could be further from the truth. You are welcome to visit my website where you can find a through expose of the HRM in great detail, including its origins and excesses. I have been debating HRM proponents for nearly 2 decades. In my opinion, it is a false gospel with a false Christ that will lead souls into great deception, delusion, and eventually destruction.

          Your conclusion that one can have both Christ Jesus and submit to the Mosaic Law is flawed. This is evident in the loose interpretation of Galatians 2:16-17. Here is that passage in context.
          15 We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, 16 knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified. 17 “But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is Christ therefore a minister of sin? Certainly not! 18 For if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God. 20 I have been crucified with Christ; it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself for me. 21 I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain.” (Galatians 2:15-21)

          Here is further evidence of what Paul is stating.
          “ For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them. 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.” (Galatians 1:10-14)

          Because you take so many sentences and verses out of context and apply HRM interpretations, you have trouble understanding God’s Word. That is why we need the Holy Spirit. Without full submission to the Holy Spirit, you will not have the benefit of His teaching. For example, you have a problem understanding Romans 7.

          You wrote: “It is how Paul can say in Romans 7 “for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me” and in the very next words say “So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good” If they are mutually exclusive, the many examples like these don’t make sense.”

          Here is what Paul actually wrote:
          7 What shall we say then? Is the law sin? Certainly not! On the contrary, I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.” 8 But sin, taking opportunity by the commandment, produced in me all manner of evil desire. For apart from the law sin was dead. 9 I was alive once without the law, but when the commandment came, sin revived and I died. 10 And the commandment, which was to bring life, I found to bring death. 11 For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it killed me. 12 Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good. (Romans 7:7-12)

          Here is how it makes sense:
          The ML is holy and the commandment holy, just, and good in that it accomplishes its purpose, i.e. to expose sin in sinners and humanity before the Atonement. However, when sin is exposed, it produces evil desires. It was the purpose of the ML to teach about sin ( Romans 7:13). The ML is still active in that regard for sinners since they have not received the Atonement of Christ (1Timothy 1:8-11). The lawful use of the ML is to expose sin in sinners. However, the ML could not deliver the individual from sin. It exposed sin and then required atonement. That is why Paul called it the “law of sin and death” (Romans 82); i.e. someone sins and something had to die. Such a Law traps us in a “body of death” because there is no freedom from the sin (Romans 7:24). The Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus (Holy Spirit) frees us from the Law of sin and death (the Mosaic Law). In the “body of death” we are by nature “children of wrath” (Ephesians 2:3). The Holy Spirit reveals our sin in greater measure and detail than the ML, but adds to our nature His fruit that overcomes sin.
          22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. (Galatians 5:22-23; also, 2 Peter 2:2-11, the fruit of the Divine Nature)

          Therefore, if you wish to remain under the ML, it will do its good and holy work of exposing your sin. Living under the ML is an attempt to serve God through the flesh. Sin will condemn you and you will need the rituals and other works to abate the condemnation. You will have to live by sheer will power, because you will not have in your nature the fruit of the Holy Spirit having rejected the Atonement and its full work. You will not understand the Scriptures and wrestle with them to destruction (2Peter 3:14-16).

          I advise you to return to Christ, submit fully to the Holy Spirit, and reject the heretical teaching of the HRM. That is your only hope in this period of the great and final deception before the appearing of Christ.

          January 23, 2014 at 5:39 AM Reply
  19. PaulO,
    (Part one)
    I wish that you had chosen to respond to my points. Instead you changed the focus to presenting a concept of Colossians that I’m certain that many will find puzzling, e.g., “making a connection between what happens to us happens to Christ”. The verses you posted do not validate your statement. Please re-read it and make appropriate corrections. Further, you present an inaccurate and in fact opposite interpretation of Colossians 2:16. This is manipulating the Scriptures to conform to a doctrine. It contradictory to the context of Colossians and everything else the Apostle Paul has written on the subject of the Mosaic Law. Proper hermeneutics requires us to consider the entirety of Paul’s writings when trying to interpret an individual verse. Additionally, please realize that it is improper to cut & paste verses or remove them from context to fabricate or support a doctrine.

    After the greetings in Colossians the 1st chapter, Paul lays the foundation for his letter.
    19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:9)
    Notice that Christ has reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross. This has not been accomplished through the ML, as Paul explains in the following chapters and elsewhere in his epistles. I have not read your discourse in the link you referred to. However, if there is anything in it germane to this topic, it would be helpful to your case if you were to post that part here. However, instead of posting your “scholarly” discourse or responding to my points, you chose to pick out a single scripture reference that I presented.
    You wrote: “You quote 1 Timothy 1:9 but don't seem to mention that it says the law is for the lawless. If you are not following the law, doesn't that make you lawless?”
    You failed to fully grasp what I wrote. I wrote, “The fact is that the HRM lures people away from Christ and into bondage that was meant for sinners (1Timothy 1:9).” Not only does that statement declare that the Mosaic Law is for the lawless (sinners), but the very act of posting 1Timothy 1:9 is the same as making the statement. The reason is because 1Timothy 1:9-11 is an unambiguous statement of the fact that the ML is for the lawless. I also wrote in my last post the following: “The ML is still active in that regard for sinners since they have not received the Atonement of Christ (1Timothy 1:8-11).” Does that satisfy you that I have mentioned that the law is for the lawless? If so, please correct your statement that I implied otherwise.

    Additionally, you have wrongly concluded that if I do not go backwards and under the ML, then I must be lawless. What I actually present is that those that reject the Atonement, namely lost individuals, remain under the ML. This is consistent with what I have written and taught many times. I also present that the ones that are in Christ Jesus are under a higher and purer Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. I would have to reject the Teacher, the Holy Spirit, and to re-submit to the antiquated didactic rules and regulations of the ML. If you had carefully read my posts you would have known this. Further, you would have known that I do not teach or even hint at lawlessness. Instead, I believe that one is more lawful with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit than if one were under the ML. However, if you intend to dwell under the ML, then by your own words you would need to be lawless. Remember that your (and my) position is that the ML was for the lawless.

    January 28, 2014 at 7:04 PM Reply
  20. (part two)
    Next, you make ambiguous and self-defeating statements such as, “Yes, Jesus did rescue us from the curse of the law (referencing Galatians), but that does not mean everyone has the life. You can be rescued from sin and the curse of the law by Christ, then turn around and give yourself back to sin and not inherit the kingdom.”

    Everyone that is redeemed by the blood of Christ has life. However, you completely agree with me that those who are in Christ have been delivered from sin and the curse of the ML. Instead of following that course, you then make an unsubstantiated and contradictory remark, namely, “The Messiah showed us how to spiritually follow the law and not get carried away with the traditions of men.” These are contradictory positions. Christ does not deliver us from the ML, and then command us to re-submit to it after He has fulfilled it. Present clear verses in context to back up these statements. Christ appeared to the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus. God used Paul to write nearly 2/3rds of the N.T. Paul clearly informs the true Christian that he or she is no longer under the ML. Paul declares that he received his revelations from Christ. Therefore, to deny what Paul taught is to deny Christ, or to deny that Paul taught what Christ taught him.

    As to Christ teaching about spiritually following the law, so does the Teacher that He sent us. The Holy Spirit teaches against lawlessness more than the ML could ever do because He presents a higher and more perfect law that dwells inside of us. I do not need to be taught to abstain from pork to know the difference between clean and unclean. I know the difference because the Holy Spirit has helped me to exercise my senses to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5:14). Why would I want to sit under a schoolmaster when the One who created it is willing to dwell inside of me and teach me a higher law?

    The truth is that if Abraham had been a HRM proponent, he would have killed Isaac. However, God told him not to sacrifice his son, but to kill the ram instead. Abraham, a man of faith, killed the ram and spared his son. Thousands of years later, God sent His only Son into the world. He essentially invited us to not sacrifice the ram (and other animal sacrifices) but to kill His Son instead. You claim that you have accepted His sacrifice and subsequent Atonement. If that is true, then the Mosaic Law is fulfilled…all of it. The ML being fulfilled required another law and another covenant. God has sent that new law and covenant. It is written in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.

    You seem on one hand to reject what He has sent, but on the other hand try to accept part of it. It is a package deal. If you accept the ML, then you deny that Christ was the perfect Lamb and did not fulfill the requirements of the ML. You would in effect be attempting to back into the kingdom of heaven. If you accept that HE was/is the perfect Lamb, you must accept the fact that He fulfilled the requirements of the ML and therefore its ordinances, rules, and regulations. If you accept the atonement of Christ, you accept the person of the Holy Spirit, his law, his guidance, and are conforming to His image. You have put off the old man and put on the new, you make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof, you consider your life hidden with Christ in God, you allow the Holy Spirit to crucify your flesh, and etc. If you accept the Atonement of Christ, then you died with Him. You were buried with the baptism of death and thus fulfilled through Christ the ML requirement that you or an animal must die for your sin. How can one who has died to the world and flesh and whose life is hidden with Christ in God be under subjection to the Mosaic Law? In that case, Christ would have to be under subjection to the ML.

    Now if you do not understand anything I have written, please respond to at least one point that you disagree with and we will discuss it.

    January 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM Reply
  21. pauljohnott #

    I would love to respond in detail to what you say, but I worry we have some fundamental differences and are talking about different things. If I were to respond in kind, we would still have trouble understanding each other.

    If you would, please tell me what these words mean and source your statements with the Bible. As an "use it in a sentence" example, I will provide the first place each word is used in the NASB.

    - Sin: (Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”)

    - Clean: (You shall take with you of every clean animal fnby sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female)

    - Unclean, (Or if a person touches any unclean thing, whether a carcass of an unclean beast or the carcass of unclean cattle or a carcass of unclean swarming things, though it is hidden from him and he is unclean, then he will be guilty.)

    - Transgressor: (For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.)

    - Lawlessness: (And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.')

    - Law: (I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws)

    I worry your answer is going to be very complicated and hard to understand using a Bible.

    Peace,
    Paul

    February 2, 2014 at 10:50 AM Reply
  22. C. H. Fisher #

    Paul, I will respond to your last sentence first.
    You wrote, “I worry your answer is going to be very complicated and hard to understand using a Bible. “
    The Apostle Paul (who wrote nearly 2/3rd of the New Testament) wrote much against resubmitting to the Mosaic Law. Peter declared that his words were complicated and hard to understand for untaught and unstable individuals (2 Peter 3:16). My words are not nearly so complicated, but I do use a Bible. I use it because it is the Word of God. It is how I came to recognize my need for Christ the Lord and Savior. It has been my source of spiritual food for over 36 years. Why wouldn’t I use it? And why would I use anything else? Are you opposed to the Bible? Do you deny that it is God’s gift to His people? That may also be the beginning of another debate that distracts from the present one.

    Now, to answer your post I only have a couple of simple statements. First, I must repeat that a clever debate trick is to shift the focus of the debate to another topic. Asking me to “stand in for a concordance” does not have any place in this debate. I have posted my points against your doctrine. It is your duty to defeat them with your own presentation. It is highly irregular (and I might add evasive) for you to present a response that asks the meaning of several words. Present your position and I will refute it with the Bible. If you disagree with the Bible, then tell us what book that you agree with so that we can know the source of your argument.

    However, since there are other people involved in this debate who agrees with your position, and since so many points are being offered, at the end of my last post I tried to simplify it. I asked you to please respond to at least one point that you disagree with and we will discuss it. Your response is to disregard my request and to post a random request that has no connection to the debate. I ask again that you please respond to at least one point that you disagree with and we will discuss it. I also cordially ask that, for the sake of simplification, all other individuals (Red, Ben, ect.) defending HRM please allow Paul and me to continue without interruption.

    February 3, 2014 at 8:53 PM Reply
  23. PaulO #

    C.H.,

    I find it so strange that you consider it a trick to ask you to define the words you use. 1 Timothy 1:8-9 says,

    "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"

    And you explained this saying "the law" refers only to the law given to Moses, yet "the lawless" refers to those without the law given to Moses nor "a higher and purer Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus". And I assume you believe these two laws are separate? Are they related in any way? If there are two separate laws, why isn't the Bible clearer in which they're talking about in all the places it simply says "law"?

    So if you came across a lawless or sinner as described here, you would teach them from Exodus? Isn't that the "law" that is being talked about, according to your explanation?

    "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"

    I would tell them about the Messiah, because he taught the spiritual understanding of the law of Moses. And he has the power to rescue people out of lawless behavior, whether that is as terrible as murder or minor as ignoring the feasts.

    Doesn't it make more sense to read 1 Timothy 1:8-9 as saying the law is for those without the law? Does someone have the law? No? The law is for them.

    Do you sin?

    If there are two separate laws, wouldn't there be more talk about this throughout the Bible? More distinctions made? I see now why you refer so much to "ML". You are making clear this distinction between the law given to Moses and this other separate law. The Bible rarely gives any indication that there might be two laws though, especially outside of Romans. Many places it reads as though love is the special new way you fulfill the law given to Moses.

    "If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,' you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:8-13)

    "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another." (Gal 5:13-15)

    "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

    Why would there be this kind of talk about how to fulfill the "ML" if it was replaced by another law?

    I would like to suggest that these places where there appears to you to be talk of two separate laws, they are in fact discussing the letter versus the spirit of the law. In other words, they are discussing the literal interpretation of the law versus the implied intent of the law. I would suggest this is what made the Pharisees lacking in righteousness. Jesus taught the law directly, but restored its intent. Paul found that following the letter of the law did not help him. Being legalistic about the rules makes one devoid of love and the spirit of God, and places you "under" the law. Similarly, you have to even be legalistic to enter the covenant: through circumcision. Love is what Jesus filled the law with, and that is how we fulfill the righteous requirement of the law. And it is by faith that we enter the covenant.

    In practice this leaves us on very similar soil on most issues it would appear, although I'm not clear what all is a part of your "higher and purer Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" and what isn't.

    Peace,
    Paul

    February 4, 2014 at 3:34 PM Reply
    • C. H. Fisher #

      Paul,
      As to the debate trick, I spent the time and energy to write a detailed and diligent refutation of your points. Instead of answering even one of them, you posted a request for me to define several words for you. I considered that to be an evasive maneuver, i.e. ignoring my refutation and instead shifting the entire focus, in short, a trick. However, I will answer the questions that you asked. Please reciprocate and do me the courtesy of answering my points instead of ignoring them.

      1. [And I assume you believe that the two laws are separate?] Since you have several questions that are practically the same, I will respond those in the last response.
      2. [So if you came across a lawless or sinner as described here, wouldn’t you teach them from Exodus? Isn’t that the “law” that is being talked about, according to your explanation?] In response to the first question; not necessarily. The Holy Spirit imparts the conviction of sin. Conviction means guilty of a breaking a law. To those who by conviction are convinced of their need for a Savior, I present to them Christ Jesus. My further response is in question 8.
      3.[Doesn’t it make sense to read 1Timothy 1:8-9 as saying the law is for those without the law?] That is what it means and essentially what I have written. Anyone without the law is lawless, which is where the term “outlaw” comes from.
      4.[Does someone have the law? No?] Yes, those who are in Christ have the law of the Spirit of life, the Holy Spirit, abiding in them, which is God’s law. However, sinners have not accepted the Atonement and remain under the Mosaic Law.
      5.[Do you sin?] Do you? Let’s not ask personal questions irrelevant to the topic at hand.
      6.[If there are two separate laws, wouldn’t there be more talk about this throughout the Bible? More distinctions made?] They are not separate in the sense that God has given two completely sets of laws. They are separate in the sense that the Mosaic Law is a record of God’s law that includes a list of didactic rules and regulations. It is His will according to His divine nature about how Israel would live. The Holy Spirit is not a record of God’s law, but it is God’s law in pure spiritual form without the didactic rules and requirements. The ML taught about the nature of God, the Holy Spirit is the divine nature of God. The Mosaic Law was a tutor to bring us to Christ. That is what the didactic requirements and regulations were all about. By the ML, God exposed sin. The sacrificial system provided a way for Israel to pay the penalty. The Holy Spirit, as the divine nature of God, imparts God’s law, the same law reflected in the 10 commandments, to our hearts and minds. He does not impart God’s law through the Torah, but directly to us in a purer and greater measure. Further, He does not submit us to the didactic rules and regulations, because he is the Teacher.
      Finally, you wrote, “I would like to suggest that these places where there appears to you to be talk of two separate laws, they are in fact discussing the letter versus the spirit of the law.”
      I concur, but I’m not certain that you understand what you just wrote. The “letter” is the ML, and the “spirit” is the Holy Spirit. The letter of the law is all that the ML had to offer. Until Christ came teaching a spiritual degree of the ML, people had never heard it.
      “You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not commit adultery’” (the ML in Exodus 20:14). “But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart” (The spiritual law as the Holy Spirit manifests it). (Matthew 5:27-28) Search the ML and you will not find the teaching in 28th verse.

      The Holy Spirit is the spiritual law that the handwritten ML was a reflection of. Can you understand that having the divine nature in your heart is better than having a book about His divine nature? It’s the same law, one is written and the other indwells humanity. The Atonement fulfilled the ML, which required death for each sin. However, God did not leave us lawless (or without His law). He gave us the absolute fullness of His law and a Tutor in the person of the Holy Spirit.

      You then wrote, “Love is what Jesus filled the law with, and that is how we fulfill the righteous requirement of the law. And it is by faith that we enter the covenant.”

      Again, I concur. That is why I do not need to read the Torah as a means to know God’s law. His law is imparted to me by the Holy Spirit in a much more brilliant, higher, purer, and spiritual manner (consider the fruits of the Holy Spirit). The difference between the ML and the Holy Spirit is illustrated (albeit roughly) by the difference between the tabernacle on earth and the one in heaven. If God asked you to come before Him through the one in heaven, would you refuse and try to enter through the one on earth? If the answer is “no”, then why would you cling to the letter when He who is perfect has come?

      February 5, 2014 at 8:05 PM Reply
  24. Red #

    Paulo and CH, any comments?

    Torah means 'instructions" or "instruction manual" not our western meaning of "law".

    Here is an interesting web site that proposes 1,000 'commandments' found in the New testament, for example, ACTS 15:29, abstain from eating food offered to idols (Muslim halal meat), of Luke 3:14 He said, "Be content with your wages"…

    Does following these instructions in the New testament negate the work of Messiah, or did He tell us to observe these as an "instruction manual" of right living that He prefers?
    http://www.cai.org/bible-studies/1050-new-testame

    February 6, 2014 at 7:51 AM Reply

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