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Hebrew Roots

dsfsdfdWe recently received a letter:

I just recently found your website and it seems very solid to me. My question has to do with the Hebrew Roots movement. Our son is deeply involved in this and insists that we should be, too. It has had a very divisive affect on our family. We have looked at the beliefs and practices of this movement and feel that it is placing people back under the law. In fact, our son tells us that we are NOT under a new covenant, but that the old covenant has been renewed and we should still practice all the feast days. He also says that celebrating Christmas and Easter are pagan and we should steer clear of them. He even says he is NOT a Christian, but a Hebrew. This deeply saddens us. Can you lend us some insight on this and how to respond to him? Thank you, B


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ZxccSo what exactly is the Hebrew Roots movement? We’re going to explore that topic in depth today. Although there are many different and diverse Hebrew Roots assemblies with variations in their teachings, they all adhere to a common emphasis on recovering the “original” Jewishness of Christianity. That doesn’t sound so bad, does it? But as you’re going to hear today, this movement and the varients of it are leading people into grave deception.

 

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74 Responses to “Hebrew Roots”

  1. PaulO #

    Nowhere does Jesus say he did away with the law. To the contrary he explicitly, and repeatedly, stated the opposite.

    He fulfilled it by revealing what the Pharisees and teachers of the law were lacking. It is not the law that was lacking, but their interpretations and traditions.

    It is like trying to fill a cup completely, but using stones. The cup may have the appearance and weight of being full, won't be. That is what the Pharisees were doing.

    Then Jesus came. He dumped out the stones and poured water into the cup, filling it completely. That is what love, through the Holy Spirit, does.

    In both cases the law (the cup) is present, but it is a burden with one, and life-giving with the other.

    This may seem like a strange analogy to some, but this is exactly what the word 'fulfill' means in Matthew 5:17: "I did not come to abolish but to fulfill." This Greek word means "to make full; to fill up; i.e. to fill to the full". This is different than the word used in verse 18: "not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished." Here the Greek word translated 'accomplished' means "to become; i.e. to come into existence, begin to be, receive being".

    Jesus did not come to bring about the end of the law. He came to pour life-giving water into it. He lived as a man to show man how to live. And that is how we should live until the end does come about: with love, mercy, grace, justice, remembering God. This, and more, are major parts of the law that Jesus lived. How Jesus lived is still important today.

    Yes, his death does atone for our sin. But this does not do away with the importance of loving God and loving our neighbor. His death and the Holy Spirit make it so we can.

    Do not call the law a burden, for if you do you are calling Jesus a burden. Call the rocks a burden. Call the traditions of the religious leaders a burden. Do not dare call the life-giving waters of our Messiah a burden.

    The atonement can only be understood from within the context of the law. Get rid of the law, and it is meaningless. What is sin? What does Passover mean? What are offerings for sin? Who is Jesus? What do his words mean? What is the kingdom? If our answers do not line up with scripture–all of scripture–what does that mean?

    May 26, 2015 at 2:45 PM
  2. C. H. Fisher #

    Jesus Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law. To deny that truth is to deny the atonement and thus deny the Gospel.

    May 26, 2015 at 12:47 PM
  3. C. H. Fisher #

    I fight the good fight of faith by simply declaring God's truth. Jesus Christ the Lord and Savior, Son of God, perfect Lamb, FULFILLED the Law by His sacrificial death. Everyone who is His is indwelled by His Holy Spirit, i.e., indwelled by the Law Giver. We do not have to go backwards under bondage to a Law that exposed sin, but had no power over it. Individuals who are truly born again of the Spirit have been set free from the Mosaic Law (law of sin and death) by the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. Sadly, The diabolical Hebrew Roots Movement, like all the other heresies that compose the last deception and great apostasy, have brought many under a great delusion. They have not received love for truth. Their doctrine denies the atonement, thus denies Christ. This is not the time to play religious games. There are no second chances before God's Judgement Throne.

    May 26, 2015 at 12:44 PM
  4. C. H. Fisher #

    God's word declares that individuals that do not recognize the New Covenant, the fact that Christ fulfilled the Mosaic Law, are in fact liars. They are enemies of the Gospel.

    May 26, 2015 at 8:04 AM
  5. Christians have misunderstood that "the law" being addressed by Paul is not the Ten Commandments, but rather the "yoke" of the traditions of the fathers, aka "Rabbinical Judaism." If we bow to idols, murder, steal, or work on the 7th day, we are law-breakers. Constantine designed a hybrid faith that had "nothing in common with the hostile rabble of the Yahudim," which included the moral instructions that define sin. I'm sorry this sounds like damnable heresy, but Yahusha also said that anyone who annuls the least of the Commandments will be the least in His reign. If we claim to know Yahusha, and do not live as He lived, we are liars.

    May 23, 2015 at 4:51 PM
  6. Cathy #

    Not surprised that by January 2015 things had fizzled out here – these discussions will always be circular ones. Refute, explain, question others all you like CH Fisher, but everyone has their own understanding about what is written in the bible, and influenced by all they read/hear. As if this is anything new!!! Paul would have had lean writings otherwise. Never was a holy book compiled and translated that provides such a rich source of material for debate!

    January 16, 2015 at 6:39 PM
  7. PaulO #

    C.H.,

    I find it so strange that you consider it a trick to ask you to define the words you use. 1 Timothy 1:8-9 says,

    "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"

    And you explained this saying "the law" refers only to the law given to Moses, yet "the lawless" refers to those without the law given to Moses nor "a higher and purer Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus". And I assume you believe these two laws are separate? Are they related in any way? If there are two separate laws, why isn't the Bible clearer in which they're talking about in all the places it simply says "law"?

    So if you came across a lawless or sinner as described here, you would teach them from Exodus? Isn't that the "law" that is being talked about, according to your explanation?

    "But we know that the law is good, if a man use it lawfully; knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,"

    I would tell them about the Messiah, because he taught the spiritual understanding of the law of Moses. And he has the power to rescue people out of lawless behavior, whether that is as terrible as murder or minor as ignoring the feasts.

    Doesn't it make more sense to read 1 Timothy 1:8-9 as saying the law is for those without the law? Does someone have the law? No? The law is for them.

    Do you sin?

    If there are two separate laws, wouldn't there be more talk about this throughout the Bible? More distinctions made? I see now why you refer so much to "ML". You are making clear this distinction between the law given to Moses and this other separate law. The Bible rarely gives any indication that there might be two laws though, especially outside of Romans. Many places it reads as though love is the special new way you fulfill the law given to Moses.

    "If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF,' you are doing well. But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors. For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all. For He who said, “DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY,” also said, “DO NOT COMMIT MURDER.” Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law. So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty. For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment." (James 2:8-13)

    "For you were called to freedom, brethren; only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity for the flesh, but through love serve one another. For the whole Law is fulfilled in one word, in the statement, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.” But if you bite and devour one another, take care that you are not consumed by one another." (Gal 5:13-15)

    "Owe nothing to anyone except to love one another; for he who loves his neighbor has fulfilled the law. For this, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY, YOU SHALL NOT MURDER, YOU SHALL NOT STEAL, YOU SHALL NOT COVET,” and if there is any other commandment, it is summed up in this saying, “YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law." (Romans 13:8-10)

    Why would there be this kind of talk about how to fulfill the "ML" if it was replaced by another law?

    I would like to suggest that these places where there appears to you to be talk of two separate laws, they are in fact discussing the letter versus the spirit of the law. In other words, they are discussing the literal interpretation of the law versus the implied intent of the law. I would suggest this is what made the Pharisees lacking in righteousness. Jesus taught the law directly, but restored its intent. Paul found that following the letter of the law did not help him. Being legalistic about the rules makes one devoid of love and the spirit of God, and places you "under" the law. Similarly, you have to even be legalistic to enter the covenant: through circumcision. Love is what Jesus filled the law with, and that is how we fulfill the righteous requirement of the law. And it is by faith that we enter the covenant.

    In practice this leaves us on very similar soil on most issues it would appear, although I'm not clear what all is a part of your "higher and purer Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus" and what isn't.

    Peace,
    Paul

    February 4, 2014 at 3:34 PM
  8. C. H. Fisher #

    Paul, I will respond to your last sentence first.
    You wrote, “I worry your answer is going to be very complicated and hard to understand using a Bible. “
    The Apostle Paul (who wrote nearly 2/3rd of the New Testament) wrote much against resubmitting to the Mosaic Law. Peter declared that his words were complicated and hard to understand for untaught and unstable individuals (2 Peter 3:16). My words are not nearly so complicated, but I do use a Bible. I use it because it is the Word of God. It is how I came to recognize my need for Christ the Lord and Savior. It has been my source of spiritual food for over 36 years. Why wouldn’t I use it? And why would I use anything else? Are you opposed to the Bible? Do you deny that it is God’s gift to His people? That may also be the beginning of another debate that distracts from the present one.

    Now, to answer your post I only have a couple of simple statements. First, I must repeat that a clever debate trick is to shift the focus of the debate to another topic. Asking me to “stand in for a concordance” does not have any place in this debate. I have posted my points against your doctrine. It is your duty to defeat them with your own presentation. It is highly irregular (and I might add evasive) for you to present a response that asks the meaning of several words. Present your position and I will refute it with the Bible. If you disagree with the Bible, then tell us what book that you agree with so that we can know the source of your argument.

    However, since there are other people involved in this debate who agrees with your position, and since so many points are being offered, at the end of my last post I tried to simplify it. I asked you to please respond to at least one point that you disagree with and we will discuss it. Your response is to disregard my request and to post a random request that has no connection to the debate. I ask again that you please respond to at least one point that you disagree with and we will discuss it. I also cordially ask that, for the sake of simplification, all other individuals (Red, Ben, ect.) defending HRM please allow Paul and me to continue without interruption.

    February 3, 2014 at 8:53 PM
  9. pauljohnott #

    I would love to respond in detail to what you say, but I worry we have some fundamental differences and are talking about different things. If I were to respond in kind, we would still have trouble understanding each other.

    If you would, please tell me what these words mean and source your statements with the Bible. As an "use it in a sentence" example, I will provide the first place each word is used in the NASB.

    – Sin: (Then the LORD said to Cain, “Why are you angry? And why has your countenance fallen? If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”)

    – Clean: (You shall take with you of every clean animal fnby sevens, a male and his female; and of the animals that are not clean two, a male and his female)

    – Unclean, (Or if a person touches any unclean thing, whether a carcass of an unclean beast or the carcass of unclean cattle or a carcass of unclean swarming things, though it is hidden from him and he is unclean, then he will be guilty.)

    – Transgressor: (For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision.)

    – Lawlessness: (And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; DEPART FROM ME, YOU WHO PRACTICE LAWLESSNESS.')

    – Law: (I will multiply your descendants as the stars of heaven, and will give your descendants all these lands; and by your descendants all the nations of the earth shall be blessed; because Abraham obeyed Me and kept My charge, My commandments, My statutes and My laws)

    I worry your answer is going to be very complicated and hard to understand using a Bible.

    Peace,
    Paul

    February 2, 2014 at 10:50 AM
  10. (part two)
    Next, you make ambiguous and self-defeating statements such as, “Yes, Jesus did rescue us from the curse of the law (referencing Galatians), but that does not mean everyone has the life. You can be rescued from sin and the curse of the law by Christ, then turn around and give yourself back to sin and not inherit the kingdom.”

    Everyone that is redeemed by the blood of Christ has life. However, you completely agree with me that those who are in Christ have been delivered from sin and the curse of the ML. Instead of following that course, you then make an unsubstantiated and contradictory remark, namely, “The Messiah showed us how to spiritually follow the law and not get carried away with the traditions of men.” These are contradictory positions. Christ does not deliver us from the ML, and then command us to re-submit to it after He has fulfilled it. Present clear verses in context to back up these statements. Christ appeared to the Apostle Paul on the road to Damascus. God used Paul to write nearly 2/3rds of the N.T. Paul clearly informs the true Christian that he or she is no longer under the ML. Paul declares that he received his revelations from Christ. Therefore, to deny what Paul taught is to deny Christ, or to deny that Paul taught what Christ taught him.

    As to Christ teaching about spiritually following the law, so does the Teacher that He sent us. The Holy Spirit teaches against lawlessness more than the ML could ever do because He presents a higher and more perfect law that dwells inside of us. I do not need to be taught to abstain from pork to know the difference between clean and unclean. I know the difference because the Holy Spirit has helped me to exercise my senses to discern both good and evil (Hebrews 5:14). Why would I want to sit under a schoolmaster when the One who created it is willing to dwell inside of me and teach me a higher law?

    The truth is that if Abraham had been a HRM proponent, he would have killed Isaac. However, God told him not to sacrifice his son, but to kill the ram instead. Abraham, a man of faith, killed the ram and spared his son. Thousands of years later, God sent His only Son into the world. He essentially invited us to not sacrifice the ram (and other animal sacrifices) but to kill His Son instead. You claim that you have accepted His sacrifice and subsequent Atonement. If that is true, then the Mosaic Law is fulfilled…all of it. The ML being fulfilled required another law and another covenant. God has sent that new law and covenant. It is written in our hearts and minds by the Holy Spirit.

    You seem on one hand to reject what He has sent, but on the other hand try to accept part of it. It is a package deal. If you accept the ML, then you deny that Christ was the perfect Lamb and did not fulfill the requirements of the ML. You would in effect be attempting to back into the kingdom of heaven. If you accept that HE was/is the perfect Lamb, you must accept the fact that He fulfilled the requirements of the ML and therefore its ordinances, rules, and regulations. If you accept the atonement of Christ, you accept the person of the Holy Spirit, his law, his guidance, and are conforming to His image. You have put off the old man and put on the new, you make no provision for the flesh to fulfill the lusts thereof, you consider your life hidden with Christ in God, you allow the Holy Spirit to crucify your flesh, and etc. If you accept the Atonement of Christ, then you died with Him. You were buried with the baptism of death and thus fulfilled through Christ the ML requirement that you or an animal must die for your sin. How can one who has died to the world and flesh and whose life is hidden with Christ in God be under subjection to the Mosaic Law? In that case, Christ would have to be under subjection to the ML.

    Now if you do not understand anything I have written, please respond to at least one point that you disagree with and we will discuss it.

    January 28, 2014 at 7:05 PM
  11. PaulO,
    (Part one)
    I wish that you had chosen to respond to my points. Instead you changed the focus to presenting a concept of Colossians that I’m certain that many will find puzzling, e.g., “making a connection between what happens to us happens to Christ”. The verses you posted do not validate your statement. Please re-read it and make appropriate corrections. Further, you present an inaccurate and in fact opposite interpretation of Colossians 2:16. This is manipulating the Scriptures to conform to a doctrine. It contradictory to the context of Colossians and everything else the Apostle Paul has written on the subject of the Mosaic Law. Proper hermeneutics requires us to consider the entirety of Paul’s writings when trying to interpret an individual verse. Additionally, please realize that it is improper to cut & paste verses or remove them from context to fabricate or support a doctrine.

    After the greetings in Colossians the 1st chapter, Paul lays the foundation for his letter.
    19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. (Colossians 1:9)
    Notice that Christ has reconciled all things to Himself through the blood of His cross. This has not been accomplished through the ML, as Paul explains in the following chapters and elsewhere in his epistles. I have not read your discourse in the link you referred to. However, if there is anything in it germane to this topic, it would be helpful to your case if you were to post that part here. However, instead of posting your “scholarly” discourse or responding to my points, you chose to pick out a single scripture reference that I presented.
    You wrote: “You quote 1 Timothy 1:9 but don't seem to mention that it says the law is for the lawless. If you are not following the law, doesn't that make you lawless?”
    You failed to fully grasp what I wrote. I wrote, “The fact is that the HRM lures people away from Christ and into bondage that was meant for sinners (1Timothy 1:9).” Not only does that statement declare that the Mosaic Law is for the lawless (sinners), but the very act of posting 1Timothy 1:9 is the same as making the statement. The reason is because 1Timothy 1:9-11 is an unambiguous statement of the fact that the ML is for the lawless. I also wrote in my last post the following: “The ML is still active in that regard for sinners since they have not received the Atonement of Christ (1Timothy 1:8-11).” Does that satisfy you that I have mentioned that the law is for the lawless? If so, please correct your statement that I implied otherwise.

    Additionally, you have wrongly concluded that if I do not go backwards and under the ML, then I must be lawless. What I actually present is that those that reject the Atonement, namely lost individuals, remain under the ML. This is consistent with what I have written and taught many times. I also present that the ones that are in Christ Jesus are under a higher and purer Law, the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus. I would have to reject the Teacher, the Holy Spirit, and to re-submit to the antiquated didactic rules and regulations of the ML. If you had carefully read my posts you would have known this. Further, you would have known that I do not teach or even hint at lawlessness. Instead, I believe that one is more lawful with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit than if one were under the ML. However, if you intend to dwell under the ML, then by your own words you would need to be lawless. Remember that your (and my) position is that the ML was for the lawless.

    January 28, 2014 at 7:04 PM
  12. In Colossians Paul uses the theme of the body of believers as the body of Christ, making a connection between what happens to us happens to Christ.

    1:24: "Now I rejoice in my sufferings for your sake, and in my flesh I do my share on behalf of His body, which is the church, in filling up what is lacking in Christ’s afflictions."

    2:18-19: "Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God."

    Just before this is 2:16 where Paul is encouraging them to take part in the feasts and to not let anyone judge them but the body. A more accurate translation of Colossians 2:13-17:

    "And although you were dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, he quickened [you] together with himself, forgiving us all the trespasses, blotting out the handwriting with the decrees which was against us, which was an adversary to us, and he removed it from the midst, nailing it to the cross. Having spoiled the principalities and the powers, he made a show of them openly, triumphing over them on it. Therefore, do not let any man judge you in eating or in drinking, or in part of a feast, New Moon, or Sabbath (which are a shadow of the coming things), but the body of Christ."

    See my post up above for a link to a scholarly explanation of this translation.

    You quote 1 Timothy 1:9 but don't seem to mention that it says the law is for the lawless. If you are not following the law, doesn't that make you lawless? Unfortunately I think your understanding of the Mosaic law is more in line with modern thinking than Christ. The Messiah showed us how to spiritually follow the law and not get carried away with the traditions of men. The law, the Mosaic law as you call it, is spiritual and holy. Love is the fulfillment of the law.

    Yes, Jesus did rescue us from the curse of the law (referencing Galatians), but that does not mean everyone has the life. You can be rescued from sin and the curse of the law by Christ, then turn around and give yourself back to sin and not inherit the kingdom. See 1 Corinthians 10; Hebrews 3; Jude 1. Sin is lawlessness. Jesus taught against lawlessness over and over, even prophetically. See Matthew 7:23, Matthew 13:41; Matthew 24:12, and more in Revelations 12:17 and Revelations 14:12.

    The biggest impact this had at the time was opening the door for Gentiles. A lot of Paul's writings are contesting the traditions of the elder Jews in separating themselves from the Gentiles. He was not doing away with the law, but rather he was bringing the Gentiles into the fold against the rules of the religious authorities.

    January 22, 2014 at 5:49 AM
  13. Ben, your attempts to refute my position come up short. First, you quote Proverbs 1:7 and then make the following statement.

    “If we revear god, it leads to knowledge, but if we reject His instructions we are a fool… Whose instruction will we follow? Gods or mans? This is the context of the chapter and a major theme of the entire Bible.”

    Do you not realize that you condemn your own position with that verse and statement? There is evidence that you ignore a huge portion of the New Testament that declares the Mosaic Law has been fulfilled and is no longer applicable to Christians. Additionally, you attempt to convert the New Testament to HRM doctrine with scriptures that are irrelevant because they pertain to the Mosaic Law, such as Deuteronomy 11:26-28. When you attempt to defend your position by using New Testament scriptures, your doctrine becomes unraveled. Consider that you posted the following verse out of context to defend your position.

    Colossians 2:8 “Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.”

    Here it is in context: 8 Beware lest anyone cheat you through philosophy and empty deceit, according to the tradition of men, according to the basic principles of the world, and 9 For in Him dwells all the fullness of the Godhead bodily; 10 and you are complete in Him, who is the head of all principality and power. (Colossians 2:8-10)

    Recognize that the Apostle Paul uses the phrase, “not according to Christ.” He does not say, “not according to the Mosaic Law.” The verses 9 & 10 say it all. True salvation is according to Christ. The HRM rejects that truth by presenting Christ and the Mosaic Law. However, Christ alone is the essence of the true Gospel. I am complete in Him and thus do not need the Mosaic Law (which the Perfect Lamb fulfilled with His shed blood). God replaced it with the Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus, the Holy Spirit.

    Then, amazingly, you post Galatians 3:13 (again, out of context ), which makes my point. Here it is in context.
    10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.”12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” 13 Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”, 14 that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-13)

    Galatians 3 is a crushing defeat of the HRM doctrine. It also explains what the Apostle Paul meant in Colossians 2:14. Christ redeemed us from having to do the works of the law, thus from the burden, curse, and penalty of it. Therefore, even Gentiles can have the blessing of Abraham, although they do not the works of the Law. As I have repeatedly stated, you quote verses out of context to support your position. It is evidence of approaching God’s word, not searching for truth, but for support of doctrine. This is what I call honoring doctrine more than truth.

    Next, you present a bizarre interpretation of Colossians 2:16 (posted out of context).
    You wrote: “Let no one stop you from eating and drinking what is right, or from keeping the feasts… The opposite (I assume) from how you read it.”

    The opposite is, as you stated, from how you read it. I choose to read it in context as the Lord God requires. Here it is in context.
    16 So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, 17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ. (Colossians 2:16-17)

    Those things (which pertain to the Mosaic Law) are a shadow. The substance (shadows have no substance) is of Christ, not the Mosaic Law. Paul was always pointing people away from the Mosaic Law and unto Christ. Further, you quote Acts 15:20 out of context. The reason the elders in Jerusalem made those stipulations was because they wanted to reach the Jews. This is evident in next verse.
    21 “For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.” ( also see 1 Corinthians 8:1-12)

    Peter made a strong defense against imposing the Law upon them. “10 Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? 11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved in the same manner as they.” (Acts 15:10-11)

    You quote other verses that defeat your position, especially when taken in context. You attempt to appropriate them by quoting where Christ exposed the hypocrisy of the Jewish leaders. That passage has no relevance to this debate/discussion. You seem incapable of understanding what it means to have died with Christ. If I have died with Christ, then my life is hidden with Christ in God. The Mosaic Law required death, and Christ died. I died with Him. Therefore, the Mosaic Law has no relevancy to my life. I am now under a spiritual Law, the Holy Spirit. Colossians 3 (and it would be helpful to ignore the chapter markings when reading Colossians) reveals the nature of a life hidden with Christ in God. Paul makes no references to the Mosaic Law, having denounced it in the previous chapters. In fact, the entirety of Colossians is about the work of Christ being superior to the work of the Mosaic Law.
    Consider the following from the 1st chapter.
    19 For it pleased the Father that in Him all the fullness should dwell, 20 and by Him to reconcile all things to Himself, by Him, whether things on earth or things in heaven, having made peace through the blood of His cross. 21 And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight— 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister. (Colossians 1-19-23)

    If you insist on taking verses out of context, in quoting the Law to defend the Law, and ignore the abundance of the Scriptures against your position, no amount of truth can convince you otherwise. The fact is that the HRM lures people away from Christ and into bondage that was meant for sinners (1 Timothy 1:9). HRM doctrine is a work of man. It is an attempt to defeat the gospel of Christ Jesus by refuting His atonement. One may deny this truth by claiming that there is a christ involved in the HRM doctrine. However, it is a false christ, one that neither the Old Testament nor the New Testament presents, i.e. a christ without atonement. If Christ is presented with the HRM doctrine, it constitutes another christ that the New Testament does not present. It is, in fact, moving people away from the hope of the Gospel. Half Mosaic Law and half Gospel is the same as no Gospel. God moved us from the old to the new, from that which is stale and faded away to that which is fresh and vibrant. Satan will convince people to use whatever means to defeat the Gospel of Christ Jesus. It is inevitable that the works of darkness that came against the Apostle Paul would also come against those who are Christ’s today. In this period of great and final deception, many are falling victim to numerous heresies. Only love for truth can prevent deception. Reject it, and only delusion and eternal damnation awaits.

    Instead of manipulating God’s word in an effort to prove your doctrine, why not just take your own advice. Here it is just as you wrote it.
    “If we revear god (sic), it leads to knowledge, but if we reject His instructions we are a fool… Whose instruction will we follow? Gods or mans? This is the context of the chapter and a major theme of the entire Bible.”

    January 22, 2014 at 3:53 AM
  14. Ben #

    Since I could not reply to C.H.' s last post, I thought I would just start a new comment.

    Col 2 Starting in vs 3 (God) In whom are hid all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge.
    4 And this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words.
    Prov 1:7"
    The fear of the LORD [is] the beginning of knowledge: [but] fools despise wisdom and instruction." If we revear god, it leads to knowledge, but if we reject His instructions we are a fool… Whose instruction will we follow? Gods or mans? This is the context of the chapter and a major theme of the entire Bible.

    Vs 6
    As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, [so] walk ye in him:
    to walk
    to make one's way, progress; to make due use of opportunities
    Hebrew for, to live
    to regulate one's life
    to conduct one's self
    to pass one's life
    Vs7
    Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.
    And here comes the warning again (along with vs4)
    Vs8
    Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

    Contrasting traditions of men with what Christ taught. Which begs the question what did Christ teach? How did He live? He is our example.

    Vs 14
    Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

    What is the handwriting of ordinances? 1: it was against us, and 2: Christ nailed it to the cross.
    Romans 7:12,13
    Wherefore the law [is] holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.
    13 Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid…
    Deuteronomy 11:26-28
    Behold, I set before you this day a blessing and a curse;
    27 A blessing, if ye obey the commandments of the LORD your God, which I command you this day:
    28 And a curse, if ye will not obey the commandments of the LORD your God, but turn aside out of the way which I command you this day, to go after other gods, which ye have not known.
    Galatians 3:13
    13 Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law, being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed [is] every one that hangeth on a tree:

    It was the CURSE or penalty that Christ nailed to the cross. Like the hymn says " my sin not in part but the whole is nailed to the cross and I bear it no more praise the LORD!!!"

    Vs16
    Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath [days]:

    Let no one stop you from eating and drinking what is right, or from keeping the feasts… The opposite (I assume) from how you read it. Did God bless all animals to eat? Did He bless all fluids to drink? Did He eliminate His feasts? All 3 HAVE to be true for your interpretation to be true…. Acts 15:20
    But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and [from] fornication, and [from] things strangled, and [from] blood.

    Don't eat meat that was strangled… Don't drink blood… 2 of the 3 are "restricted" for the gentile believer in this -verse! So I can't eat nor drink whatever I want,… But if we read it as let no one stop you from eating and drinking what is right, or from keeping the feasts it makes perfect sense and there is no contradiction.

    Vs17
    Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body [is] of Christ.

    Things to come. Not all the feasts have been fulfilled. The fall feasts refer to His second coming. They are all profitable for us to remember what Christ did and what He will do.

    Vs20-23
    Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances,
    21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not;
    22 Which all are to perish with the using;) after the commandments and doctrines of men?
    23 Which things have indeed a shew of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

    And finally we have Paul giving the warning yet again. The very same thing that Christ railed against many times (read all of Mark 7)
    (Christ) answered and said unto them, Well hath Esaias prophesied of you hypocrites, as it is written, This people honoureth me with [their] lips, but their heart is far from me.
    7 Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men.
    8 For laying aside the commandment of God, ye hold the tradition of men, [as] the washing of pots and cups: and many other such like things ye do.
    9 And he said unto them, Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition.

    Therefore Colossians 2 is NOT rejecting God law as written down in our Bible by Moses. Such an interpretation has several contradictions (some of which I have pointed out). But Paul, like Christ, was warning against traditions and doctrines of men.

    Grace and peace

    January 21, 2014 at 1:47 AM
  15. Ben,
    Concerning your statement about the perfect law, you apparently do not understand what I wrote. Please try reading it again slowly. Further, I never wrote “God's is law bondage”, but the Mosaic Law that Paul declared is bondage because it trapped him in a “body of death” (read Romans 7 and 8 in a continuous flow). Sadly, you are misquoting me, which misrepresents what I wrote. Go back and read that part of my post again. Please choose not to insert “God’s law” where I refer to the Mosaic Law. Although the Mosaic Law and the Law written in our hearts and minds are both given by God, God's word differentiates between the two. The reason is because the Law God gave to Moses was fulfilled by Christ Jesus. The law God’s people must abide by now is the Law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, written in our hearts and minds. To cling to the Mosaic Law is to deny the atonement and to deny the power and necessity of the Holy Spirit. Because of the indwelling of the Holy Spirit, the law written in our hearts and minds is far more powerful and persuasive than the law Moses wrote. For that reason, we do not need the Mosaic Law (“touch not, taste not, handle not”) ordinances that was nailed to the cross of Christ (Colossians 2:14).

    As I said, I am not trying to convince you. If you want to believe in the Hebrew Roots doctrine, no one will be able to convince you otherwise. I have no more time to devote to this type of discombobulated debate. I’ve made my case and you have made yours. Let the people decide.

    December 12, 2013 at 4:32 PM
  16. HRM Exposed

    "For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to everyone who believes." (Romans 10:4 NKJV)

    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. (Romans 8:2-4 NKJV) (Law of sin and death is the Mosaic Law.)

    The entire chapter of Hebrews 10. Here is an excerpt.

    For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. (Hebrews 10:1-4 NKJV)

    For if that first covenant had been faultless, then no place would have been sought for a second. Because finding fault with them, He says: “Behold, the days are coming, says the LORD, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they did not continue in My covenant, and I disregarded them, says the LORD. For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the LORD: I will put My laws in their mind and write them on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. In that He says, “A new covenant,” He has made the first obsolete. Now what is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to vanish away.
    (Heb 8:7-10 and verse 13 NKJV)

    The entire book of Galatians. Here are some excerpts.
    O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you that you should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed among you as crucified? This only I want to learn from you: Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? Are you so foolish? Having begun in the Spirit, are you now being made perfect by the flesh? Have you suffered so many things in vain—if indeed it was in vain? Therefore He who supplies the Spirit to you and works miracles among you, does He do it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?—just as Abraham “believed God, and it was accounted to him for righteousness.” (Galatians 3:1-6 NKJV)

    For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.” Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law, having become a curse for us (for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree”), that the blessing of Abraham might come upon the Gentiles in Christ Jesus, that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. (Galatians 3:10-14)

    Therefore, if you died with Christ from the basic principles of the world, why, as though living in the world, do you subject yourselves to regulations–Do not touch, do not taste, do not handle," which all concern things which perish with the using–according to the commandments and doctrines of men? These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh. (Colossians 2:20-23 NKJV)

    December 9, 2013 at 1:25 PM
  17. Ben,

    First, I’m not trying to convince you. In fact, in this period of great deception and apostasy I have not been able to convince anyone to renounce a heresy. I only post this response for the benefit of individuals that may read this page and that are intrigued by the HRM deception.

    You wrote: “When I read the inspired word of God, I find that David calls the law perfect. James agrees and calls it the perfect law of liberty.”
    You are referring to two different forms of law. Of course, David was correct in that the Law was perfect in his time. The Law was a perfect schoolmaster to lead us to Christ, among other things. But had David known the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus, he would have thought it to be more perfect law because it provides liberty. After all, it is not perfect to slaughter lambs for sin since it has to be done repeatedly. When the perfect Lamb was slain, He with one act provided atonement forever. Thus, He fulfilled the Mosaic Law and released us from its ordinances. A higher, greater, and more perfect law has been written in our minds. It does not come with the ordinances attached to the Mosaic Law.

    Therefore, James is not referring to the Mosaic Law, the law of bondage, but to the perfect law of liberty.
    But he who looks into the perfect law of liberty and continues in it, and is not a forgetful hearer but a doer of the work, this one will be blessed in what he does. (James 1:25)

    The Mosaic Law was a reflection of the Divine Nature of God. The law in our minds is the Divine Nature. Christ declared that the Law can be reduced to two commandments, love God with all your heart, soul, mind, and strength, and love your neighbor as yourself. The law that is written in our hearts and minds teaches us this exact truth. When God saved me, I did not receive a law that impressed me with the ordinances of the Mosaic Law, but with love for God and humanity. I received the elements of the Divine Nature of Christ as expressed by Peter in 2 Peter 1. In that statement of calling and election for salvation, Peter, the most Judaistic of all the disciples, never mentions the Mosaic Law.
    But also for this very reason, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love. For if these things are yours and abound, you will be neither barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. For he who lacks these things is shortsighted, even to blindness, and has forgotten that he was cleansed from his old sins. Therefore, brethren, be even more diligent to make your call and election sure, for if you do these things you will never stumble; for so an entrance will be supplied to you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. (2 Peter 1:5-11 NKJV)

    Of course, Paul writes about the Law of liberty Romans.
    For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free (liberty!) from the law of sin and death. (Romans 8:2NKJV) (The law of sin and death; someone sins, an animal dies.)

    Paul also declared that the Mosaic Law that made us to know sin also trapped us in a “body of death” (Read the entirety of Romans 7). The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus set us free from the Mosaic Law of sin and death, and thus delivered us from the “body of death”.

    To illustrate which law is more perfect, consider the following verses.

    Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? (Hebrews 10:28-29)

    You also wrote: “1 question I would ask is why are you hostle towards the very words of God?”
    There is nothing in my post that warrants such an accusation. Additionally, at some point in a debate HRM proponents will offer an extrabiblical defense and marginalize certain portions of the New Testament. Will that not be hostility to God’s Word?

    You also wrote: “And to clarify, He was not talking about the New Testament since it wasn’t even written yet.”
    Possibly, but Paul did say “scriptures”, not Mosaic Law. The Old Testament is much more than the Mosaic Law with its ordinances. However, your point is illogical because you are implying that the work of Christ was not prominent since it had not been written. However, Paul and other church leaders knew what Christ accomplished with His atoning death and taught the Early Church verbally. They were called Christians; not Judaizers. Even in the O.T. there are references to the atoning work of Christ as Paul taught in the New Testament. This is clear even in the N.T. verse that you posted.
    And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus. (2 Timothy 3:15)

    Finally, I will not post all the scriptures, but my following post contains a number of verses that defeat the HRM heresy. You can deny what they declare, add to them, or alter them, or take them as they are written. It is your prerogative. The meaning is clear for everyone who loves truth more than doctrine.

    December 9, 2013 at 1:24 PM
  18. Steve Samples #

    Christopher,
    I would be happy to 'reason from the scriptures' with you on the subject. We can dialogue here, personally, or you can establish another manner.

    December 7, 2013 at 5:03 AM
  19. The Law was a schoolmaster to lead us to Christ. Christ has come, and we are no longer under that tutor. Instead, we are under a greater and more perfect Law, the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus. The greater and more perfect Law is written in our hearts and minds. It delivered us from the Law of "sin and death" (Mosaic Law) and its fruit "a body of death". Individuals that believe in the Hebrew Roots heresy do not accept any of these biblical truths. As with all individuals that are deceived in this final great period of deception and apostasy, they will parse words, pry apart the scriptures and insert extra-biblical meanings, and believe what they wish to believe. HRM proponents turn to the du Tillet (a forged version of Matthew) because God's word presents a clear position diametrically opposite of the Hebrew Roots doctrine. They commit the same error that every deceived individual commits. They cannot be reasoned with and no amount of truth will convince them of their error. That error is; of course the Bible is incomplete, misinterpreted, or misunderstood, of course generations of godly Christians were completely wrong and thus preached and taught a false salvation, of course "they" (the HRM) are the persecuted minority because they are the only ones with truth, of course God has chosen them in these last days to be the only true Christians, and etc. Of course, but it is what every deceived individual declares. This is the last days. We are in a period of great darkness, deception, delusion and apostasy. It is not the time to be falsely rationalizing the truth into heresy. Guard your hearts and minds! The flood is coming and the standard is being raised. The HRM is part of the flood.

    December 5, 2013 at 2:37 AM
  20. Roy #

    Ben,
    I meant to reply to James, but I clicked the wrong "reply" button. Sorry, I will pay more attention to the screen instructions to respond well. But since I'm here, I liked your response. The woman at the well has always been of high interest to me…

    December 1, 2013 at 3:31 AM
  21. James Jordan #

    Folks, Jesus never came to abolish the law, but to fulfill it. Remember, that the fulfillment of the Law is love. So while Jesus did not abolish the law, he brought the law to another level. Instead of committing an act of adultery, Jesus said that if a man LOOKS at a woman to committ adultery with her in his HEART he has committed adultery. The same as for murder. Jesus said that if you want to murder someone in your heart, it is as you have murdered him. Jesus can to give us a heart transplant, because if you love your God and your neighbor as Jesus commands, you will not lie against them, steal from them, murder them, refuse to help the poor, etc. The OT is very important and we need it. What do you think Jesus and Paul and Peter quoted from? The OT. Jesus was born under the Law, so there was no way that He could do away with it or fulfill it until His death. Hebrews 9 points out that a covenant (OT) cannot be annulled until the death of the testator. It's like writing a will. You can write a will today but not die for another 30 years, and the will does not go into effect until you die. Same with the OT. It was annulled when Jesus died, for what the Bible calls a "new and living way." Or a covenant with "better promises." Why look back at the old way of doing things? Like someone stated earlier and what James 2 states, if you go back to observing the Law, you must observe all of it or you are guilty of disobeying all of it. There is no way we can keep all of the 600 laws (ceremonial, judicial, and moral) that God put on the people. That's why Jesus came preaching repentance, grace, and mercy, not condemnation.

    November 15, 2013 at 4:40 AM
  22. Hebrew roots has started to include some very rabid legalism. It originally spun out of people's impressions of messianic Judaism which itself struggles with legalism frequently.

    Lord I pray for this listener's son. Very concerned parents who are feeling the pain of separation caused by the leaven of the Pharisees.

    July 2, 2013 at 10:23 AM
  23. Trave' #

    I like how you begin with friend. It lets me know that this is wonderful, conversation to rightly divide His word in which I welcome not in argument. Matthew 5:17-18 speaks volumes. Meaning we all shall still be judged by the law in which we all will be found guilty. Hence the reason for the sacrifice of Jesus. He has already paid the debt for our violations of the law. There remains no more sacrifice for sin. The truth that we know is that Christ Jesus, the son of God came in the flesh to die for our sins (violations of the law), and was resurrected beating death, now seated in heaven, We now honor that with our lives. Not attempting to go back and follow laws in which we will never be able to follow to the letter, but bringing others to the understanding that Christ has paid the price for we could not ever pay for.

    January 28, 2013 at 4:18 AM
  24. Trave' #

    To live by rules "the law" is impossible, which is why we are saved by grace. Christ did not come to abolish the law but to fulfill it. He was the last sacrifice. If any attempt to re-establish that which He came to fulfill then that discredits His coming? Did it happen or didn't it?
    He came to establish relationship with us, That was what the covenant was. The relationship! Once one believes in the relationship the law is fulfilled in itself by the honoring of the relationship. Following laws with no relationship is just a system of rules and regulations in which one is to follow, which by the way that's what the Pharisees and the Sadducees were all about.

    January 27, 2013 at 6:45 AM
  25. Trave' #

    So just wondering is the New Testament false doctrine in which we are not to trust and believe. It is there that tells us that we are no longer under the law but under grace. If as you two suggest and as the Hebrew Roots suggest are still under the law you know that if you break one law you have broken them all? So I take it that you conduct sacrifices in that to ask for forgiveness afterward? If you do that then what does that say for the ultimate sacrifice of Jesus Christ for our sins? Oh my bad, that was in the New Testament as well. An interesting person once wrote, "The deception is so great at the return of Christ, that even the elect are deceived. We have all read that verse, so why is so hard for the average Christian to see that maybe we’ve been deceived, being deceived is not a sin, but staying in that deception and turning your face from it is!"
    "Return of Christ…" So you do believe in the New Testament? You either do or you don't. You decide.

    January 25, 2013 at 6:24 AM
  26. Aleyna #

    I have a few questions for you.
    Where did the original Jewish religion come from? Who started it and why?
    Who is the original Jew? (maybe a history lesson from Exodus)
    The Jews were not a lone group of people in the wilderness.

    why do you put Paul's words above the words of Christ. Why is the church so rebellious towards God? Only wanting to teach grace.

    Why can't we obstain from evil. Christmas is a pagan evil holiday revolved around child sacrifice. Why would it be ok for Gods chosen to participate in pagan customs and traditions.

    It is important to follow dietary laws because the food God tells us to obstain from: shellfish and pork are full of parasites and bacterias. Many of these things are not killed during the cooking process. ( two weeks ago yahoo.com posted a news article with a picture of worms in a cooked ham.) Will eating these things kill us or even keep us out of Gods presence no, but if obeyed our church may enjoy health collectively.

    Duet. explains this well, God placed before us life and death, blessings and curses, why would we not want to obey our creator, why shun his advice and wisdom by believing He's done away with it. Rules for our benefit, not His!

    Also, the next Jubilee year is 2016, this year also hold several eclipses, and blood red moons. The Jewish (whom were entrusted the oracles of God ) maintain that these events signal the return of our Messiah, wouldn't it be nice for a pastor in a christian church explain why? From this passover to the Jewish feast of trumpets is exactly 1290 days, sound like something the church should be aware of? Maybe inform us followers of? But our pastors are too busy teaching us freedom from the law to read it and teach us from its pages.
    This is why the church population is dwindling and people are walking away.

    Our pastors teach a very different message than the one laid out within the pages of the King James bible. Jeremiah explains our fathers taught us lies. . . they sure did!
    And Paul warns of a day when people would not embrace sound doctrine. Looks like we've made it to that day as well.

    The deception is so great at the return of Christ, that even the elect are deceived. We have all read that verse, so why is so hard for the average Christian to see that maybe we've been deceived, being deceived is not a sin, but staying in that deception and turning your face from it is!
    Blessings to you all.
    Repent now for the kingdom of Heaven is near!

    January 23, 2013 at 9:22 AM
  27. Also, you quoted Acts and never read the next line saying where it says he was not talking about food but people, to call no person unclean. Why were you dishonest and leave that verse out? Same with Matthew 5:17-19 and you left out two key verses you were very dishonest in your analysis. And I noticed Romans 3:31 was not quoted either when you quoted Romans 3 you left out verse 31. Hmmm, guess you do not want your listeners to check the Scripture, and to just trust you

    January 18, 2013 at 9:08 PM